Going To Prison Over Debt.

[Cubo de Sangre]

Interesting, yet confusing.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-courts-jailing-thousands-over-171957508.html

Thousands of people are being arrested and jailed each year because of outstanding civil debts, despite the United States banning debtors' prisons nearly 200 years ago, according to a new report from the American Civil Liberties Union.

An estimated 77 million Americans have debt that has been turned over to a private collection agency, the ACLU claims. The union has alleged that private debt collectors are partnering with local courts and prosecutors' offices to use the criminal justice system to punish debtors and to try to force repayments, even when debts are in dispute.

The ACLU said it found courts in 26 states and in Puerto Rico where judges has issued arrest warrants for alleged debtors at the request of private debt collectors.

For example:

Tracie Mozie of Dickinson, Texas said two armed U.S. marshals entered her bedroom in 2014 to arrest her for failing to appear in court over a $1,500 federal student loan she took out in 1986 to pay for truck-driving school.

“They had a warrant for my arrest and I asked them for what, he didn’t say what it was for. He said, ‘He’ll tell you later,’” Dickinson told researchers.

Mozie said she had a prosthetic leg, which she had to put on before marshals could shackle her feet and waist before taking her into custody.

She said she could not afford to pay back her loan, which had grown to more than $13,000 with interest and fees, because she is unemployed and living on disability benefits.

The ACLU report calls for legislation that would prohibit courts from issuing arrest warrants in debt collection proceedings and ensure that people cannot be jailed over civil debts that they "haven't been notified about, can't pay or aren't legally obligated to pay."

So was going to prison over debt outlawed or did they just outlaw prisons devoted to debtors? Why the need for a new law?

 

[Trotsky]

It depends on how narrowly or broadly you are defining it.

Should you be imprisoned because you cannot afford to pay an electricity or cable bill? No, that's a debtor prison.

Should you be jailed because you refuse to make payments on a civil judgment, despite being able to? Yes, that's contempt of court.

Of course, it's a less clear line between those two instances in reality.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

It depends on how narrowly or broadly you are defining it.

Should you be imprisoned because you cannot afford to pay an electricity or cable bill? No, that's a debtor prison.

Should you be jailed because you refuse to make payments on a civil judgment, despite being able to? Yes, that's contempt of court.

Of course, it's a less clear line between those two instances in reality.

If the contempt springs from not paying the private debt then it amounts to going to prison over not paying private debt. And yeah, whose to say what can and can't amounts to in any factual way.

 

[Shoemaker]

I don't know. On one hand, I don't think people should go to jail over civil debt. On the other hand, if you receive a notice to appear in court then you need to appear in court. If you don't show up, you aren't going to jail for your debt - you're going to jail for failure to appear.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don't know. On one hand, I don't think people should go to jail over civil debt. On the other hand, if you receive a notice to appear in court then you need to appear in court. If you don't show up, you aren't going to jail for your debt - you're going to jail for failure to appear.

Then getting out of jail should have nothing to do with whether or not you pay.

 

[Shoemaker]

If the contempt springs from not paying the private debt then it amounts to going to prison over not paying private debt. And yeah, whose to say what can and can't amounts to in any factual way.

I think that's essentially what the ACLU is trying to do here. Lenders are using the court system to circumvent the fact that you can't go to jail for debt. "Fine," they say, "We'll just take you to civil court and when you refuse to show or refuse to pay, then you'll go to jail."



I guess I don't know much about civil suits. When you're sued in civil court, and the court rules that you have to pay, do you pay an escrow that pays the plaintiff? Do you pay the plaintiff directly? Does the court ever set up payment plans? Are those payment plans re-negotiable in the event of a life changing event? Disobeying a court order should land you in jail, but if the court orders you to do something that you cannot reasonably accomplish, that sounds like railroading to me and should not be allowed.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Here's how I look at it. Private lenders charge interest and factor in risk. They take the chance of not getting paid back in order to earn a profit. If that chance doesn't pay off then it's simply a failed business venture. Too bad so sad.

 

[Trotsky]

If the contempt springs from not paying the private debt then it amounts to going to prison over not paying private debt. And yeah, whose to say what can and can't amounts to in any factual way.

Yeah, it's a hard topic to delineate.

I personally think that it should be outlawed with categorical exceptions: for instance, to compensate for non-financial injury. I think debts to non-human entities should be precluded from carrying jail time. Debts to individuals should be treated less leniently.

 

[IdahoCBR]

I'd much rather have them perform community service instead of jail time over debt. There's no sense in adding more people to our already over crowded prisons

 

[xcvbn]

At what point in human existence is going into debt a ridiculous notion as opposed to universally accepted?

(Consumer and business debt, Not fines)

 

[12ga.]

Texas why am I not surprised. The for profit prison industrial complex is some big Government Republicans can get behind and more and more people are going to jail for debt from parking tickets to student loans. OFC it effects communities of color most and poor people who can't pay anything. They are useless to Republicans so why not make 50K a year off them in jail?

They even put children in unable to make income
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/poor-children-are-being-put-in-debtors-prison-for-kids/

 

[Ophydian]

Here's how I look at it. Private lenders charge interest and factor in risk. They take the chance of not getting paid back in order to earn a profit. If that chance doesn't pay off then it's simply a failed business venture. Too bad so sad.

It also becomes a right down for the private lender. I think if they wanted to impose jail time for civil dad’s then they should get away and completely destroy or make it illegal for a private lenders to pray on people. Some of these interest rates are so absurd that you basically are forced into slavery to an extent because you can never get out of debt.

 

[Fawlty]

Only when it's defying a court order in a situation where the person can actually pay. So, only indirectly imo. The hit to your credit is already punishment enough in most cases.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yeah, it's a hard topic to delineate.

I personally think that it should be outlawed with categorical exceptions: for instance, to compensate for non-financial injury. I think debts to non-human entities should be precluded from carrying jail time. Debts to individuals should be treated less leniently.

Can you give a couple examples here? Not sure I follow. Sorry.

 

[IIIIIIII]

well, i don't see how not paying back a debt isn't considered stealing. we do arrest people for stealing, right? i think if someone is making an honest effort to pay a debt back, then of course they don't go to jail. but if you don't have a job and have no way to pay back a debt, surely there has to be a punishment for it. what other punishment can you levy upon someone who can't pay back something they took? it may sound harsh, but i don't see any other punishment to deter this behavior than prison time. sorry if that sounds harsh, but what other option is there?

 

[IIIIIIII]

I'd much rather have them perform community service instead of jail time over debt. There's no sense in adding more people to our already over crowded prisons

ah, that i can agree with. working your debt off in that way works for me.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

this is the like one instance you HOPE you get taken to Judge Judy or People's Court or whatever

b/c if you lose, you don't pay the show does, which is why the Judges can talk to you the way they do and tell you to lie, etc...

those are all real cases tho

 

[Trotsky]

Can you give a couple examples here? Not sure I follow. Sorry.

Sure,

Debt to business entity --> cannot be jailed
Debt to government agency --> cannot be jailed

Debt to private citizen --> can be jailed, subject to affirmative defense for indigence

Roughly, that is how I would ideally parcel out the subject. Like I said, I'd also take into consideration financial versus non-financial injury in the private citizens case as well.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Sure,

Debt to business entity --> cannot be jailed
Debt to government agency --> cannot be jailed

Debt to private citizen --> can be jailed, subject to affirmative defense for indigence

Roughly, that is how I would ideally parcel out the subject. Like I said, I'd also take into consideration financial versus non-financial injury in the private citizens case as well.

What are debts to private citizens besides borrowing money from your mom or something? I think any lender understands they may never see the money paid back and accept that risk for whatever reasons.

 

[Trotsky]

What are debts to private citizens besides borrowing money from your mom or something? I think any lender understands they may never see the money paid back and accept that risk for whatever reasons.

Yeah, lenders would fall under private non-human entity (unless you're just like lending money to friends and family).

Debts to private citizens could involve personal injury claims, child support payments, auto collision liability, and things of that nature.