GOAT contenders Post USADA

[ferrisjso]

The point is you either have to say (A) PEDs don't matter in GOAT consideration or (2) We can only compare fighters under the same standard (such as USADA). The problem is many (most) people here want to have their cake and eat it, too. They say Anderson can't be a GOAT because of PEDs, so Fedor is the man. But Anderson tested clean in the UFC for 9 years before getting caught. That's more legit testing than Fedor's entire career. Jones tested clean for many years, too.

Yeah his negative tests are never mentioned. For me if PED's CHANGED anything that should be examined(even DC made it clear it didn't). Issue is this whole purity movement where if you test positive once, EVERYTHING DOESN'T COUNT. Jones tested positive for one fight against a guy he already beat closer to his prime. He tested negative for EVERY other single one. Yet they get to put an asterisk on all of it based on their belief that stuff was in his body intentionally that one time and he had to have been cheating all alone.

Yeah Fedor was in a promotion where PED use was encouraged. He might not have used Rampage didn't but the issue is he did so poor in the US where drug testing was a thing, the same way many Pride fighters did. It's not cheating if you're allowed to do it, but I think PED use should be examined in what impact it had. The reason it never gets brought up the same way with AS is because AS haters have other shit to use against him, with Jones there's nothing in the Octagon they can point to. Issue with USADA is it's so accurate it catches people who test positive for stuff not necessarily cheaters. They are going to get hit with a barrage of lawsuits in the 2020's at this rate. Think Jones's picogram situation will not be the last time this happens.

 

[mkt]

Mkt- I say this because hes been SO OUTSPOKEN against people fighting with chemicals in their system on top of everything else otherwise I wouldn't give that kind of mention.
Is it possible hes lying ? Ok, maybe but not likely ...and this coming from someone that you know- knows his career but you're entitled to your say. I know you're not his biggest fan and that's fine too.

No biggie-

I respect your point...it's just that if we have a standard like USADA, we can't make exceptions for one fighter but not for another. He doesn't seem like the type who uses PEDs, but neither does Barnett. Heck, Barnett doesn't even look like he uses his gym membership! So we can't base it on looks or which fighters are outspoken...There have been a few hypocrites who slam PEDs then get caught. Again, not saying Mousasi is one, but we never know for sure.

I think it's best to have a GOAT list with no consideration for PEDs (so all fighters since 1993 might be included) and another modern one where everyone tests with the same standards.

 

[Drugstore Cowboy]

Max Holloway IMO.

 

[Deadwing88]

Still get the odd moron that attaches some kind of value to UFC rankings..

'Moron'. Quite ironic coming from the guy who is putting so much value in random unofficial rankings .

 

[Dirge]

"The official rankings don't matter, but these totally unbiased rankings from some literally who website sure do because I say so!"

Don't care about this whole p4p GOAT debate since it's highly subjective and I don't consider Khabib to be "the p4p GOAT" (he has the potential to be the LW GOAT though), but you're a fucking retard.

Really? Ok asshole which part am I an asshole about? UFC rankings that are manipulated by the UFC for the purposes of promoting fights or a 3rd party site that ranks fighters based on their actual accomplishments and records?

And regarding Johnson, I said it half a dozen times here. How does he deserve that rank after his prior record? He had past success but had lost 2 and just beaten an unranked fighter.

 

[Dirge]

'Moron'. Quite ironic coming from the guy who is putting so much value in unofficial rankings .

As compared to what? It's well known that the UFC manipulates its rankings to suit itself and not fighter accomplishments. Are you actually going to disagree on that? If so I can provide plenty of examples where they have done it.

I guarantee you if Brock comes back to fight DC, he will be ranked in the top 5 at HW... wait and see

The UFC has a vested interest in making the rankings look how they want them. I'd rather put stock in an independent MMA site than one owned by the guys that own the fighters.

 

[Fergelmince]

Bahahahahaha

what guilt would I have??? I was simply making a comment that there was nothing wrong with the picture... other than a naked dude in it...

and no one said there was anything wrong with it. You just brought it up out of the blue, because you see something wrong with it. Now do that melodramatic internet laughter thing again. you know, the one that starts with a b. that was entertaining.

 

[ultra321]

and no one said there was anything wrong with it. You just brought it up out of the blue, because you see something wrong with it. Now do that melodramatic internet laughter thing again. you know, the one that starts with a b. that was entertaining.

Ok but just for you..... Bahahahahahaha

 

[Fergelmince]

Ok but just for you..... Bahahahahahaha

good boy

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

How does he stay in the top 10 with multiple losses? As I pointed out a win over Poirier who himself was unranked had zero value at that particular time. Fighters don't get to stay in the top 10 just because they have past top 10 wins. There were plenty of other LW fighters at the time above Michael more deserving of an appropriate rank.

Gaethje remained in the top 10 despite being 1-2 in his fights going into his fight with Vick. Edson was still ranked after a loss to Lee and Khabib. Cowboy was ranked at WW after 3 losses in a row irrc. Happens literally all the time. Also Dustin was ranked.

Also I think we would accept UFC rankings at face value if they didn't play constant games with them.

I agree but official rankings are what they are. I don't like to pick and choose what I accept as credible rankings anymore because the second I do people discredit them on no basis other than not liking what they say. Official is simpler.

I'll tell you what, find me another mainstream MMA media site that had Johnson ranked in the top 10 in October of 2016 and I'll be willing to capitulate on this matter.

http://www.fightmatrix.com/historic...torical-rankings/?Issue=108&Division=5&Page=1

 

[Post 2 Decision]

All these goofs using the UFC 'official' rankings

Imagine seeing CM Punk ranked #8 going into his fight against Mickey Gall

Because apparently if that happened you would eat that shit up because they're 'official'

 

[Dirge]

Gaethje remained in the top 10 despite being 1-2 in his fights going into his fight with Vick. Edson was still ranked after a loss to Lee and Khabib. Cowboy was ranked at WW after 3 losses in a row irrc. Happens literally all the time. Also Dustin was ranked.

I agree but official rankings are what they are. I don't like to pick and choose what I accept as credible rankings anymore because the second I do people discredit them on no basis other than not liking what they say. Official is simpler.


http://www.fightmatrix.com/historic...torical-rankings/?Issue=108&Division=5&Page=1

Interesting what those little green chevrons mean...

Johnson was ranked 16th prior to his fight with Poirier. And you do know they only compile the rankings quarterly right?


Poirier was ranked 21st on the chart you showed me and yet he is shown as 7th on the image you happily provided above. So by the rankings you provide the #16 guy beat the #21 guy and is now the #7 guy.... Interesting math on that site. Perhaps if they actually updated rankings monthly it would be a little bit more accurate.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Interesting what those little green chevrons mean...

Johnson was ranked 16th prior to his fight with Poirier. And you do know they only compile the rankings quarterly right?


Poirier was ranked 21st on the chart you showed me and yet he is shown as 7th on the image you happily provided above. So by the rankings you provide the #16 guy beat the #21 guy and is now the #7 guy.... Interesting math on that site. Perhaps if they actually updated rankings monthly it would be a little bit more accurate.

Other sites that do independent ranking rarely if ever have orginized or properly archived rankings for MMA and they typically go by all major orgs, not just UFC making them inaccurate for the purpose of discussing UFC rankings. Even more reason to use the official.

And you just proved the point I made in my last post. You asked for a site that had him as top 10 in October. I did just that and you are not satisfied. Going by official is much easier if if I don't always agree with it.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

All these goofs using the UFC 'official' rankings

Imagine seeing CM Punk ranked #8 going into his fight against Mickey Gall

Because apparently if that happened you would eat that shit up because they're 'official'

If they did that it would be fucking stupid and I'd call it out for just that. Doesn't change the factt that those are the rankings. Me not liking something doesn't discredit it.

I can't go change fighters records based purely on media score cards, and I cantc change rankings based on media rankings

 

[Dirge]

Other sites that do independent ranking rarely if ever have orginized or properly archived rankings for MMA and they typically go by all major orgs, not just UFC making them inaccurate for the purpose of discussing UFC rankings. Even more reason to use the official.

And you just proved the point I made in my last post. You asked for a site that had him as top 10 in October. I did just that and you are not satisfied. Going by official is much easier if if I don't always agree with it.

It's not about satisfaction its about consistency. Why are you even a member here on the Sherdog forums if you don't give any validity to their stats? Sherdog is one of the oldest still active MMA sites and its had a rocky history with the UFC (Banned press credentials and all).

I don't trust the UFC rankings because they have intentionally changed ranks without any basis. CM Punk was ranked at one point, Nate Diaz sat in the top 10 for 2 years without fighting because the UFC was anticipating another fight with Conor, etc.

Fightmatrix rankings are a mess because they only update them every 4 months. If fighters only fought quarterly they might be more accurate. Like I said, you showed the UFC ranking Poirier as 7th (he wasn't even ranked on Sherdog at the time) and the site you linked had him ranked 21st. So how is that a relevant example?

We have just spent an hour arguing about a completely irrelevant fighters rank because you felt the need to argue. How is this even remotely relevant to my thread topic?

 

[ultra321]

good boy

I'm glad you are amused so easily.. it doesn't take much with simple minds....

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

It's not about satisfaction its about consistency. Why are you even a member here on the Sherdog forums if you don't give any validity to their stats? Sherdog is one of the oldest still active MMA sites and its had a rocky history with the UFC (Banned press credentials and all).

I don't trust the UFC rankings because they have intentionally changed ranks without any basis. CM Punk was ranked at one point, Nate Diaz sat in the top 10 for 2 years without fighting because the UFC was anticipating another fight with Conor, etc.

Fightmatrix rankings are a mess because they only update them every 4 months. If fighters only fought quarterly they might be more accurate. Like I said, you showed the UFC ranking Poirier as 7th (he wasn't even ranked on Sherdog at the time) and the site you linked had him ranked 21st. So how is that a relevant example?

We have just spent an hour arguing about a completely irrelevant fighters rank because you felt the need to argue. How is this even remotely relevant to my thread topic?

I accept all rankings for what they are, opinion of independent companies opinions. I take MASSIVE issue with glorifying one popularity contest over the other. Either take them all for what they are or just take the official. I don't have any issue with Sherdog rankings but the fact is they are unofficial and no more valid than any other rankings of mainstream sites.

The fact is in the UFC both were ranked. Simple as that dude. I don't like the UFC rankings. I don't always like Sherdogs rankings. But they are what they are. I honestly wouldn't had Brooks on the list like Sherdogs did. I'd rather Dustin or MJ over Brooks tbh.

And I wasn't even looking to argue bro. You said 2 objectively false things (claiming Khabib had no title defense) so I corrected both. You got up in your feelings about it.

I already commented on the main topic. MM all the way.

 

[Fergelmince]

I'm glad you are amused so easily.. it doesn't take much with simple minds....

like when it didn't take much to make you "glad"

 

[TapMachine]

Really? Ok asshole which part am I an asshole about? UFC rankings that are manipulated by the UFC for the purposes of promoting fights or a 3rd party site that ranks fighters based on their actual accomplishments and records?

And regarding Johnson, I said it half a dozen times here. How does he deserve that rank after his prior record? He had past success but had lost 2 and just beaten an unranked fighter.

You're a pretentious asshole (and a mental midget) for implying that there are some other rankings outside of the official ones that actually matter. No one cares where you personally or some literally who MMA """journalist""" ranks Johnson or some other fighters. Khabib fought Johnson when he was top 10, your opinion on where Johnson """really""" was in the rankings is irrelevant. If you want to bash fighters by denying their opponents rank simply because it fits your narrative, you'll get no respect from me.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Another poster here made a couple of valid points regarding the consensus GOAT candidates.

I believe for most of Sherdog over the years it has boiled down to 4 guys:

Silva
Fedor
GSP
Jones

His point was that much of their career was pre-USADA or the post USADA career was tainted and after some thought I'm inclined to agree. Silva post USADA has been a mess with two failed drug tests and only one (controversial) win. Jones of course is an ongoing meme to pulsing with multiple failed drug tests. Fedor has never fought under USADA and spent much of his career in orgs that actively encouraged PED use.

GSP is essentially the cleanest but as was pointed out to me, he has only fought once under USADA (but he did spend a year and a half in the testing pool).

Sooo, if drug testing becomes the new criteria for GOAT contention and the starting point is June 2015 (when USADA testing went live) who qualifies for the best status?

The criteria would be:

Most post USADA wins
Most post USADA top 10 wins
Longest win streak post USADA
Title wins and title defences
And obviously no failed drug tests

So who do you have? For me it would be Holloway. 7 wins post USADA, current title holder, 2 title defences, 6 top 10 wins (Aldo twice, Ortega, Pettis, Stephens and Lamas were all top 10 when he fought them).

And of course no failed drug tests. Plus he is undefeated post USADA

Who else should we nominate?

Is this thread about me?