Global spy system ECHELON confirmed at last

[Andy Capp]

Duncan Campbell has spent decades unmasking Britain's super-secretive GCHQ, its spying programmes, and its cosy relationship with America's NSA. Today, he retells his life's work exposing the government's over-reaching surveillance, and reveals documents from the leaked Snowden files confirming the history of the fearsome ECHELON intercept project. This story is also published simultaneously today by The Intercept, as is - at long last - Duncan's Register Christmas Lecture from last year.

Global spy system ECHELON confirmed at last

 

[5H3RD0G]

No entity of the same existence should govern law or police it's own people. Those against corrupted forces should apply. :icon_lol:

 

[Cid]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they're monitoring the songs we sing in the shower.

 

[IDL]

I think the goal is to close the net on the entire globe, and they aren't all that subtle about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

Spoiler

 

[Sabin]

"The NSA's explicit objective is to weaken the security of the entire physical fabric of the net."

If true, this seems very risky due to the force multiplicative effect of technology. The Ashley Madison hack touched over 30 million people. The SONY hack, domestic censorship (briefly). The recent "Pearl Harbor" of hacking, touching like 20million government workers.

If true, this has got to be one the most well hidden motives of all time, I can't think of how this could be a good thing for anyone, including the NSA. Especially with the recent huge hack from China potentially touching on the intelligence community, too - making their jobs harder, maybe putting lives at risk...

 

[uppercutbus]

Surprised no turds have knee-jerked a post saying "who cares every gubment dus it!", and "watching me mastrubate huurrrr dur"/

If the west is spying on other countries than hopefully China and Russia have their own spy networks to keep the NSA on their toes. Were'nt the US spying on germans for decades lol.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/09/nsa_snooped_on_german_chancellors_for_decades_wikileaks/

 

[Aegon Spengler]

People don't give a shit about any of this. NASA says the whole planet will be arid by 2100 because of the greenhouse effect and people still want cheaper gas and cheaper oil.

The human race is going to get what's coming to it pretty soon.

 

[robotsonic]

This is the price of our society though. Liberals in the west demand open borders, you think the security services are going to sit there and not take a proactive role in monitoring whats coming in and out? they have to...

Not that I particularly like it but if you want unfettered capitalism and freedom there has to be some sort of price to pay.

 

[Andy Capp]

Maybe this is the wrong forum for this post. I'm surprised it has not gotten more attention. As crazy as it is, I need to make a Star Trek reference. In the Next Generation, there was an incident leading to a witch hunt. Picard gives a speech about how dangerous it is to give up civil liberties in the name of justice. It applies directly to this situation, as odd as that is. I'm glad I will soon be too old to give much of a shit before everything really goes to Bradburyian hell.

 

[JDragon]

Maybe this is the wrong forum for this post. I'm surprised it has not gotten more attention. As crazy as it is, I need to make a Star Trek reference. In the Next Generation, there was an incident leading to a witch hunt. Picard gives a speech about how dangerous it is to give up civil liberties in the name of justice. It applies directly to this situation, as odd as that is. I'm glad I will soon be too old to give much of a shit before everything really goes to Bradburyian hell.

Do you mean this one?



Regarding topic: People have become either cynical or have an "anything goes" mentality ever since 9/11. It's horrible.

 

[Andy Capp]

Do you mean this one?



Regarding topic: People have become either cynical or have an "anything goes" mentality ever since 9/11. It's horrible.

That would be the one. It seems a little odd to make a Star Trek reference to such a serious issue, but it is apropos nonetheless.

In the linked article, it mentions how the issue was about to lead to a possibility of real change just before the 9/11 massacre. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but if anything was going to suggest to me it wasn't just Bin Laden et al that were responsible, it would be that. Fortunately, I don't think that's the case, but regardless, it was the perfect excuse to abandon all pretense of giving a shit about the democratic process.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Maybe this is the wrong forum for this post. I'm surprised it has not gotten more attention. As crazy as it is, I need to make a Star Trek reference. In the Next Generation, there was an incident leading to a witch hunt. Picard gives a speech about how dangerous it is to give up civil liberties in the name of justice. It applies directly to this situation, as odd as that is. I'm glad I will soon be too old to give much of a shit before everything really goes to Bradburyian hell.

It's bad that the NSA does this, but you (and I), as people who do not support this kind of invasion of privacy, have to address their two main points.

#1st - potential for nuclear terrorism. If a Nuke goes off, civil liberties don't mean shit. They will disappear. In a perverse way, preventing a nuclear catastrophe will not only save lives and prevent ecological damage, it will help preserve what little freedoms we have left. (That's originally a Sam Harris argument)

#2nd other nations are doing the to the USA anyway. If the NSA doesn't do this stuff, other countries will know more about American's private lives than the American government does.


----- counter those points please. I'm not supportive of the invasion of privacy we've been subject too, but these are the toughest arguments to beat.

 

[JDragon]

It's bad that the NSA does this, but you (and I), as people who do not support this kind of invasion of privacy, have to address their two main points.

#1st - potential for nuclear terrorism. If a Nuke goes off, civil liberties don't mean shit. They will disappear. In a perverse way, preventing a nuclear catastrophe will not only save lives and prevent ecological damage, it will help preserve what little freedoms we have left. (That's originally a Sam Harris argument)

#2nd other nations are doing the to the USA anyway. If the NSA doesn't do this stuff, other countries will know more about American's private lives than the American government does.


----- counter those points please. I'm not supportive of the invasion of privacy we've been subject too, but these are the toughest arguments to beat.

1) This is just another version of the classical 'terrorism' argument. Nobody argues against surveillance of suspects. It is about surveillance because yout might do something in the future.

2) other nations only care about military and economic issues. Your government, in the worst case, cares about everything.

 

[Andy Capp]

It's bad that the NSA does this, but you (and I), as people who do not support this kind of invasion of privacy, have to address their two main points.

#1st - potential for nuclear terrorism. If a Nuke goes off, civil liberties don't mean shit. They will disappear. In a perverse way, preventing a nuclear catastrophe will not only save lives and prevent ecological damage, it will help preserve what little freedoms we have left. (That's originally a Sam Harris argument)

#2nd other nations are doing the to the USA anyway. If the NSA doesn't do this stuff, other countries will know more about American's private lives than the American government does.


----- counter those points please. I'm not supportive of the invasion of privacy we've been subject too, but these are the toughest arguments to beat.

#1. all this surveillance has been shown to do bupkus to prevent terrorism. The failure to prevent 9/11 was universally recognized as a failure of on the ground human intelligence, not electronic intelligence of which they had plenty. Note the article points out Echelon has been running for decades and it didn't help at all.

#2. The other nations are doing this anyway because of all the help they received from the US. If they were putting as much effort into stamping it all out, it would be a lot harder for all of them.

 

[Falsedawn]

1) This is just another version of the classical 'terrorism' argument. Nobody argues against surveillance of suspects. It is about surveillance because yout might do something in the future.

2) other nations only care about military and economic issues. Your government, in the worst case, cares about everything.

To the point of the first, I dont see how you identify suspects without some sort of broad surveillance infrastructure. We dont want to let the guys get a bomb before we take note of them, so I think proactive action in that case is entirely justified. I even think the main argument isnt whether or not it should be done, but to what extent. In this day and age, going dark just isnt an option anymore.

The second is easily dismissed though. Just because other countries do it doesnt mean they all arent taking it too far as well.

 

[uppercutbus]

This is just another version of the classical 'terrorism' argument.

Pretty much, western powers / anglosphere thinks - lets record and spy on other governments our own population, store everything so we can build a profile on you using alogrithms on said data and make everyone

1 - believe we don't do such illegal things

2 - even if they suspect something, spin it as it's for their own good anyway. We have their best intentions in mind.

3 - ban encryption http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tain-online-shopping-banking-messaging-terror

4 - believe we don't do such illegal things

 

[Irenaeus]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they're monitoring the songs we sing in the shower.

I only sing pro-American songs in the shower. Pro-american songs, and a song about us not having any oil or terrorists.

 

[IDL]

1) This is just another version of the classical 'terrorism' argument. Nobody argues against surveillance of suspects. It is about surveillance because yout might do something in the future.

It could also be referred to as a protection racket

The state has no incentive at all to eliminate the threat of terrorism because it is used to justify their behavior. The state actually has incentive to make sure terrorism keeps on happening so it can be milked.

So while they are building Big Brother, just remember that they are doing it for you..

 

[Sabin]

It's bad that the NSA does this, but you (and I), as people who do not support this kind of invasion of privacy, have to address their two main points.

#1st - potential for nuclear terrorism. If a Nuke goes off, civil liberties don't mean shit. They will disappear. In a perverse way, preventing a nuclear catastrophe will not only save lives and prevent ecological damage, it will help preserve what little freedoms we have left. (That's originally a Sam Harris argument)

#2nd other nations are doing the to the USA anyway. If the NSA doesn't do this stuff, other countries will know more about American's private lives than the American government does.


----- counter those points please. I'm not supportive of the invasion of privacy we've been subject too, but these are the toughest arguments to beat.

I think the risk here is what the information is being used for and could be used for and the potential for abuses of power. The intelligence community's traditional opponents have been some dangerous MF'ers - terrorists, mafia, narcotraffickers, outlaw biker gangs, street gangs, serial killers, even rogue governments. And they harden because of it, out of necessity. And now these are the guys in possession of all of your information, all of your flaws, and stupid mistakes. An estimated 68 million people have a criminal record, an estimated 40% of people have smoked marijuana illegally, 25-60% of people have cheated on their partners, and on and on.

So when you combine human weakness with a lack of transparency in the IC and a history of past abuses, people start to worry about overreach and fear because of just how powerful these organizations are and the fact that they have something akin to diplomatic immunity - at times they do what they want and get away with it. MK Ultra, anyone?

A real judiciousness should be applied in who to turn these guys against, especially when it comes to a nation's own citizens.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

Uuugggh Snowden. Prime example of a traitor who deserves life in prison.

He is arguably worse than Jonathan Pollard because he flees to our enemies. Some say Pollard should of been put to death well in that case so should Snowden. I look forward to the day Snowden is aprhended and sentenced to life in prison WITHOUT parole.

The damage he has done is unforgivable and has ruined so many lives. People like hating on bankers who simply extended too much leverage (not illegal) yet I find it odd how some defend a known traitor who puts his own country men in harms way.