Gianni Grippo - NeXT GeN DLR

randomg1t said:
so much this.

if i'm paying you for lessons, you have no right to call me a creonte when i change schools. you want to act like this is family and i somehow betrayed you, you better train me for free. it fucking pisses me off when they act as if there is this sacred bond between them and yet if the student didn't pay up they'd kick him out. fucking double standard bullshit.
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Agreed. I am paying for a service not joining a cult.
 
GJJNY said:
I really don't think there's a conspiracy against Americans. True, when you reach a certain level some guys gravitate towards other high level guys to train, but do they denounce their allegiance? I don't recall seeing this too often. At lower belts, without very good reason, gym hopping is shady and pretty crappy when someone invests time in your development.
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Except for the fact that they are ONLY investing time into your development because you pay them. If you didn't pay.. 99.9% chance you aren't getting shit from them.

It's a completely different story when:

You are training for free/living with your instructor/etc. That is a real investment into your development that you repay with hard work and time on the mat + competing under your schools name.

However, as a lower level practitioner who PAYS for the classes they attend, you don't owe allegiance to anyone. Yes, you may develop a bond with your instructor and probably an even closer bond with your teammates... but as long as you are forced to pay for the services rendered, you reserve the right to seek the best training environment for you.

"Creonte" is a way for gyms/trainers to bully students into sticking with them despite their better judgement. It's a bunch of grown men acting like high school girls. If you feel the need to ostracize someone for looking for better training, then you should take a good, long, hard look at WHY they left your gym. If you offer a better level of service, people won't leave. Period. Blaming the student for your pathetic inability to maintain your own clientele is fucking weak.
 
Naja said:
Man you really don't know what you are talking about.. In Brazil this "creonte" stuff is pretty strong among old school academies, and there isn't such "invetion" to fool americans. It is quite common to see fighters being described as "creontes" for having changed team. I also believe that if you are paying to train you can leave the place at anytime, but this mentality still exists here in Brazil. You probably won't see newer guys worring too much about this, but for the old school teachers (such as Romero Jacar
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Gary Tonnen speaks to this on the latest episode of Open Mat Radio. He said that he was training with Grippo on a weekly basis until the jump and never heard anything, no one did.

This guy literally ended a 10 year relationship with his team via surprise facebook message on Renzo's bday. If you believe that loyalty belongs anywhere in bjj/martial arts I don't see how you can support this behavior. Loyalty is a two way street. Renzo's made many concessions for Gianni. He was allowed to set up a drilling/competition class after he trained at the Mendes', and this is a facility frequented by some of the best MMA fighters in the world.

Saying all Americans are called creonte is making excuses for very poor behavior.
 
NSchoke said:
Gary Tonnen speaks to this on the latest episode of Open Mat Radio. He said that he was training with Grippo on a weekly basis until the jump and never heard anything, no one did.

This guy literally ended a 10 year relationship with his team via surprise facebook message on Renzo's bday. If you believe that loyalty belongs anywhere in bjj/martial arts I don't see how you can support this behavior. Loyalty is a two way street. Renzo's made many concessions for Gianni. He was allowed to set up a drilling/competition class after he trained at the Mendes', and this is a facility frequented by some of the best MMA fighters in the world.

Saying all Americans are called creonte is making excuses for very poor behavior.
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Loyalty has a place in all relationships between men of honor, and if Gianni handled it badly then I'm not surprised there's so much acrimony now. My point is that it's not automatically wrong to change teams any more than it's automatically wrong to leave your girlfriend. The key is how you handle it. I guess just for reference I'll say how I think it should be handled.

There are really two main reasons you'd leave a gym for another gym nearby. The first is training partners. If you're the best guy at your gym and another gym across town has 5-6 badass BBs on the mat every night that could really push you, you might consider leaving your gym for that one. You could either leave completely, or you could tell your instructor that you want to cross train at the other place to get better opponents. If he reacts badly to this, then you can leave honorably because you made your reasons clear and gave him a chance to compromise. He'll probably be mad, but that's okay. You haven't done anything underhanded here.

The second reason is that you're not getting the instruction you feel you need. In this case, I think you talk the instructor about it and see if there's any flexibility in terms of how or what you're being taught. If there's not, and you think another school is a better fit, then you tell your teacher you're leaving because you don't feel like you're getting what you need to improve and you leave. Again, he'll probably be pissed but that's okay. People who lose business to competitors are usually pissed, it doesn't mean the customer was doing anything wrong by choosing the best option for himself.

Of course, there are other reasons to leave like your teacher is doing things that are unethical (TLI), or you can't afford it and are going for a cheaper option. These are pretty straightforward cases where I don't think anyone could hold leaving against you. Again, just be straight about your reasons and don't try to do anything on the sly.

The hardest case is when your instructor has invested a lot in you outside the normal relationship but you still feel you've outgrown your school for whatever reason. This is harder, because if he's been giving you free privates or letting you train for free or whatnot, then you do owe him somewhat (again, if it's an ethical thing like at TLI those obligations become null and void IMO). I don't really know how to handle this, I don't know that there is a template. I think it will depend on the nature of the personal relationship between you to a large extent. I suppose you just have to decide if your continued improvement is worth burning a bridge with someone who's invested a lot in you. The difficulty of this situation is one reason I would be hesitant to accept too much special treatment for free, because becoming obligated to someone like this can be very hard to disentangle.
 
NSchoke said:
Gary Tonnen speaks to this on the latest episode of Open Mat Radio. He said that he was training with Grippo on a weekly basis until the jump and never heard anything, no one did.

This guy literally ended a 10 year relationship with his team via surprise facebook message on Renzo's bday. If you believe that loyalty belongs anywhere in bjj/martial arts I don't see how you can support this behavior. Loyalty is a two way street. Renzo's made many concessions for Gianni. He was allowed to set up a drilling/competition class after he trained at the Mendes', and this is a facility frequented by some of the best MMA fighters in the world.

Saying all Americans are called creonte is making excuses for very poor behavior.
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I kinda support the "train wherever you want as long as you pay" mentality, but this, if true, was some really poor taste stuff by Gianni.
 
Uchi Mata said:
Loyalty has a place in all relationships between men of honor, and if Gianni handled it badly then I'm not surprised there's so much acrimony now. My point is that it's not automatically wrong to change teams any more than it's automatically wrong to leave your girlfriend. The key is how you handle it. I guess just for reference I'll say how I think it should be handled.

There are really two main reasons you'd leave a gym for another gym nearby. The first is training partners.

The second reason is that you're not getting the instruction you feel you need.
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The reason I've heard the most is that his girlfriend is Alliance, along with Renzo's being to MMA focused. Im sure he had his reasons, he couldn't have handled it much worse.
 
Solidus Snake said:
I kinda support the "train wherever you want as long as you pay" mentality, but this, if true, was some really poor taste stuff by Gianni.
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You won't find anyone saying how he left isn't true, it is. Renzo's has guys at the highest levels of pretty much all competition, they're not worried about making a name off Gianni. He just did them very dirty.
 
Yeah, you can't blame somebody for wanting to train under Marcelo, but if he didn't at least tell Renzo about it in person that is low class. It's like dating a girl for ten years - even if you realize she's not right for you, the least you could do is talk to her about it.

Hell, if I changed plumbers after ten years I'd at least say something to the guy.
 
FlexLuthor said:
Except for the fact that they are ONLY investing time into your development because you pay them. If you didn't pay.. 99.9% chance you aren't getting shit from them.

It's a completely different story when:

You are training for free/living with your instructor/etc. That is a real investment into your development that you repay with hard work and time on the mat + competing under your schools name.

However, as a lower level practitioner who PAYS for the classes they attend, you don't owe allegiance to anyone. Yes, you may develop a bond with your instructor and probably an even closer bond with your teammates... but as long as you are forced to pay for the services rendered, you reserve the right to seek the best training environment for you.

"Creonte" is a way for gyms/trainers to bully students into sticking with them despite their better judgement. It's a bunch of grown men acting like high school girls. If you feel the need to ostracize someone for looking for better training, then you should take a good, long, hard look at WHY they left your gym. If you offer a better level of service, people won't leave. Period. Blaming the student for your pathetic inability to maintain your own clientele is fucking weak.
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Ah the bs American "I'm the paying customer attitude". Look, everyone instructor I've know is jiujitsu first, business second. They want to see their students get better, putting in extra time to answer questions before/after class, during open mat, etc. If it were a business like you describe, they'd say "fuck you, $100/hr private". Also, I can't think of one instance where a student has approached the instructor/owner and tried to make other arrangements for payment if they're in a situation. Again, doesn't sound quite like the business environment you describe.

I understand every gym isn't for everybody, that's what trial periods are for, but you have guys switching gyms 2-3 times by the time they're a purple. Maybe they should take a good, long, hard look as to why they can't seem to settle in anywhere.

This has nothing to do with GG, he switched once and I'm sure he has his reasons, he's been in the game a while and he knows the deal. I'm talking about the chronic lower belt gym hoppers who blame everyone else for their inability to 'fit in' anywhere.
 
GJJNY said:
Ah the bs American "I'm the paying customer attitude". Look, everyone instructor I've know is jiujitsu first, business second. They want to see their students get better, putting in extra time to answer questions before/after class, during open mat, etc. If it were a business like you describe, they'd say "fuck you, $100/hr private". Also, I can't think of one instance where a student has approached the instructor/owner and tried to make other arrangements for payment if they're in a situation. Again, doesn't sound quite like the business environment you describe.

I understand every gym isn't for everybody, that's what trial periods are for, but you have guys switching gyms 2-3 times by the time they're a purple. Maybe they should take a good, long, hard look as to why they can't seem to settle in anywhere.

This has nothing to do with GG, he switched once and I'm sure he has his reasons, he's been in the game a while and he knows the deal. I'm talking about the chronic lower belt gym hoppers who blame everyone else for their inability to 'fit in' anywhere.
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what other arrangements for payment? working for them? cleaning the gym? running their classes? that's the same thing, isn't it? they want something in exchange for their knowledge.

of course there are instances where the student actually has a very strong bond with their instructor. we've all heard the stories of some seriously poor brazillian children with absolutely nothing but the clothes on their back living in the gym, doing nothing but training. the people who enabled them a life, a career and a future with that are awesome, and i'm sure those kids never leave.

but let's not pretend everyone is in that situation. and let's not pretend like all the instructors running the schools are doing it for free. sure, some are, but most aren't. most gyms are businesses and you don't call someone a traitor for leaving your business. it really is pretty simple. as long as you're taking money from me for teaching me, you can shove your "loyalty" up your ass if i feel like i should be training somewhere else. if you want to preach the family bond bullshit, then don't take my hard earned money.
 
randomg1t said:
what other arrangements for payment? working for them? cleaning the gym? running their classes? that's the same thing, isn't it? they want something in exchange for their knowledge.

of course there are instances where the student actually has a very strong bond with their instructor. we've all heard the stories of some seriously poor brazillian children with absolutely nothing but the clothes on their back living in the gym, doing nothing but training. the people who enabled them a life, a career and a future with that are awesome, and i'm sure those kids never leave.

but let's not pretend everyone is in that situation. and let's not pretend like all the instructors running the schools are doing it for free. sure, some are, but most aren't. most gyms are businesses and you don't call someone a traitor for leaving your business. it really is pretty simple. as long as you're taking money from me for teaching me, you can shove your "loyalty" up your ass if i feel like i should be training somewhere else. if you want to preach the family bond bullshit, then don't take my hard earned money.
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this is just a product of the system we live in, not the people running your bjj clubs. a side effect of the consumer economy where the customer has all the power and the expert/instructor/guru/etc has to dance to the whims of the fickle layman. thanks yelp.

i dont see how you guys cant buy into the whole "family" thing! i feel really close to my training partners and any instructor ive had! not as close as my own mother, sure, but still! more than the customer-service provider relationship. im not sure what you expect them to do, teach classes 40 hours a week, including weekends for donations?

im not saying never switch. ive switched once in 7 years, with a lot of other guys actually, and felt a lot of conflict about it. i still do a little. but there's more to this whole thing than what you get when you're buying your daily coffee.
 
tommy the kid said:
this is just a product of the system we live in, not the people running your bjj clubs. a side effect of the consumer economy where the customer has all the power and the expert/instructor/guru/etc has to dance to the whims of the fickle layman. thanks yelp.
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who said anything about him having to dance? how are you getting that from me saying i can train wherever i damn well please?

i dont see how you guys cant buy into the whole "family" thing! i feel really close to my training partners and any instructor ive had! not as close as my own mother, sure, but still! more than the customer-service provider relationship. im not sure what you expect them to do, teach classes 40 hours a week, including weekends for donations?
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again, where are you getting this from? my coach is actually my friend first, we went to the same school, we hang out outside of the gym, etc. i don't expect them to do anything for free or for donations, i would feel very uncomfortable if i didn't pay for training.

but if i decided to train with some other team and he got butthurt about it, i would tell him to go fuck himself. fortunately, he holds the exact same view and i'm not very likely to leave anyway.

there was a thread about something similar a while ago here and some guy summed it up perfectly. jiu jitsu instructors want their gyms to pay them up like a real business, but they don't want them to behave like a business. they want everyone to consider them as a family member and honor some sacred bond, but at the same time pay the kind of money you pay for regular services. it's childish and hypocritical.
 
probably that girl he is with now (reason for switching to alliance) - if you wanna read stupidity in posts add her on facebook. Girl is fucking dense.
 
I don't think anyone gives a shit about people living for other teams but you gotta man up when you're gonna do it.
 
randomg1t said:
who said anything about him having to dance? how are you getting that from me saying i can train wherever i damn well please?


again, where are you getting this from? my coach is actually my friend first, we went to the same school, we hang out outside of the gym, etc. i don't expect them to do anything for free or for donations, i would feel very uncomfortable if i didn't pay for training.

but if i decided to train with some other team and he got butthurt about it, i would tell him to go fuck himself. fortunately, he holds the exact same view and i'm not very likely to leave anyway.

there was a thread about something similar a while ago here and some guy summed it up perfectly. jiu jitsu instructors want their gyms to pay them up like a real business, but they don't want them to behave like a business. they want everyone to consider them as a family member and honor some sacred bond, but at the same time pay the kind of money you pay for regular services. it's childish and hypocritical.
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you dont have to give me your life's story. im mainly referring to a general attitude not something you said.

although you emphasizing the word "business" tells me you're still stuck in a certain mode of thinking. your instructor is a man who needs to eat to live and needs to work to eat. that's all. as someone who's spent a great deal of time with you and shared something as important, personal and yes intimate, as bjj with you he and your other training partners expect some loyalty. or they should. how that loyalty might look will vary. what's childish to me is this expectation you can quit anytime for whatever reason without repercussions because its "your money".
 
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