Getting to Super Deep Half Guard or Rolling Underneath

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by wildcard_seven, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Want to get here, as it looks in the far right photo.

    [​IMG]

    The problem is, every time I get a deep underhook and try to roll under, people just sprawl or sit real heavy. It pretty much kills it every time. I see the knee to chest thing happening here, I've tried that variant and it isn't really helping me, I could be missing something--truthfully, it feels like my knee slows my rolling under progress when I do that. Try to pass the cross face arm that I'm "pawing" over my head too, but that just tends to put them on defensive and they sprawl, fight like hell to get position back.

    There's some discussion on this in the "Greatest Half Guard" thread, but nothing in there really jumped out at me. Anybody got any tips or variations or guesses on how to better get to this spot?

    I feel good at mid to deep range, but I really want to start getting some super-deep half going.
     
  2. SFinclined

    SFinclined Purple Belt

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    Are you letting them crossface you? If they crossface you they can use that for leverage to sprawl. If they aren't crossfacing they have nothing to post against to sprawl, unless they have a wizzer.

    If the guy on top in the picture had his left arm crossfacing bottom, he would be able to sprawl.
     
  3. DirectDrive

    DirectDrive Black Belt

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    taking that picture as an example:
    focus on getting under the opponents right leg, rather than pulling under their left leg. they can sprawl if you are under both legs equally (like in htat picture), but if you are sliding under their straihgt leg it will force them to sit down on the other knee.
     
  4. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    I see, kimosabe. That makes sense.
     
  5. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I do this all the time. You need to set it up. One thing that helps me a lot is to dominate the cross-facing arm and drive it hard, with correct form, over you. Unless you get him flying over you, then you can't go deep. Drive towards the arm as if you were going to scissors sweep/kimura him, then whip it over your head as if you were going to do a backroll escape. Hand/elbow behind the armpit to keep him pushed over. Then ratchet that leg up and over. Huzzah!

    Also you can't keep your legs closed, you have to pendulum them to whip under.
     
  6. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    Check out Saulo's freestyle revolution half guard dvd. He has a lot of great points on how to get into position.
     
  7. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Agree....somewhat. If you really know how to arch and drive your hips into the mat at the proper angle, you can stop a lot of people with NO arms. While it's easier, I definitely have to say that it isn't impossible or even that unlikely for a guy to stop you with heavy hips. For that reason, I'm trying to improve my entry, cause I've come up against these guys who really make it a bitch with good reactions and heavy hips.
     
  8. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Hadn't really noticed that. Yah...

    Will apply the hawtness to the crossface for spring-load effect as well.
     
  9. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    I have this. He does have good points, but mainly, he shows how to set up...like "Now we're ready to go under!", then he mentions the knee a little bit. But basically he makes the actually rolling part look ridiculously easy and I couldn't really get it. Too simple, really. I was like man, is the guy letting him through? I know he wasn't, but he did it so good and smooth that I couldn't really break it down. It was just like, I'm out, and now I'm in super-deep land---Just like that. Sometimes it's hard to learn when they do it so awesome....don't know if it makes sense.
     
  10. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    come on....a few more good thoughts. I don't feel closure.
     
  11. IChinaManI

    IChinaManI Green Belt

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    It helps to use your whole body as well. Dont just try to use the lower body, or the upper body to get under. Use everything together in one or two motions to get under. I usually end up using lockdown and then bring their leg up and sit up. I don't play alot of half guard, and only really look to get under their crossfacing/whizzer arm.
     
  12. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    Try working on developing a threat in the opposite direction. Then, when they set themselves to defend that you'll find it easier to dive into the deep half guard. For example, my primary attack is to come up for the single leg on the other side. Due to this threat they fight the (arm) underhook pretty hard, which then fake and dive into deep half guard.

    I also like to use the lockdown to stretch their legs before working into the (leg)underhook. Another option is to think of pulling yourself under his legs rather than pulling him over top of you.
     
  13. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    Well I think I found a solution for you while rolling tonight. There are two ways of doing this as far as I can figure. Here is the way I did it tonight. I was in half guard, secured underhooks, whipped up to my elbow and was about to work for the Old School sweep. My partners response to that was to base out on his free leg and push into me. As soon as I felt the pressure, I shot my arm as far under his leg as possible and rolled to my other hip. That motion let me get my shoulder under him and then I swept him.

    So the one solution is to move to that sweep after an attempt at pushing into him and use his momentum to get deep.

    The second way is the way I think Saulo does it on the video I mentioned. Technique 11 shows it well. He get the knee in between them, gets a near side under hook then he pull the guy on to him as he rolls. When he rolls he kind of pivots on the back and shoots his arm deep through the legs.

    The key in both methods I think is getting his weight moving in the direction you want to sweep and get the arm as deep as possible.
     
  14. muaythaifolife

    muaythaifolife Blue Belt

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    Ive been playing with this deep half quite a bit when my spider guard gets shut down. And actually we've been working something similar at Tinguinhas for the past 2 weeks.

    What usually works for me when they have the standard crossface is to pretty much keep the half guard closed, overhook and grab the belt and pendulum my legs side to side until either:

    a) I pendulum to the outside and it creates enough space to grab his inside leg and start scooting my hips in closer and out the back door or into that position

    or:

    b) I swing the other way when he blocks and swing all the way to my knees and either land the single leg or old school. If he blocks then go back the other way and repeat.
     
  15. StevieSparkZ

    StevieSparkZ Green Belt

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    Being cross faced sucks, no doubt about it.

    The half guard is something I've been really working on because at first I would try it and even though I knew to never be flat on my back and have the near side underhook. I couldn't stop from being flattened it was miserable! Even when I had the underhook some guys that were good or big or both, would keep me flat regardless of the underhook.

    So I kept working on it and asking my instructor about it.

    Here's a few things I wanted to share that's been really working for me:

    1) Brushing the hair

    This is when you do the motion that those "cool" fonzie lookin guys with the leather jackets in movies do. (lol i know) Of course prevention is key to anything bad happening to you in BJJ but you can't always "prevent" something for whatever reason. So when I feel a cross face coming I take my arm that's not trying to get the underhook and "brush my hair". If you guys can picture it, it looks like you are doing just that as it guides the top man's cross facing arm over. It's mostly about timing.

    2) Grappler's Sit up

    I recall watching a half guard sweep video with this guy in an orange shirt teaching it. I recall I believe Frodo saying he was in the video or that was his instructor. The guy basically showed the move and showed himself doing a situp. He crunched his knees into his stomach causing him to ball up and he shot but his arms up. The arms look like what people do when they shrug their shoulders and doing an "I Don't Know" pose, BUT when you do it, you throw your arms/hands way past the line of your shoulder to really throw his weight up and over your head. This will cause him to do the "superman" pose and post his weight on both his extended arms. You can now just simply go under him with ease at this point. Also note you can take out your underhook arm and "traffic cop" or stiff arm him at the ribs to keep him away if needed.

    3) Long Distance Half Guard

    Ok, so far I've covered the grapplers sit up and the brushing of the hair. The long distance half guard has been working excellent for me. If I feel like he is putting his weight on me and my arms aren't in correct posture. (Near side arm across my belly ready to underhook, Other arm ready to make a "paw" to block crossface) I will post both my arms out to check his shoulders and get my knee between us. This will give me time to recompose myself to play the half guard. I usually do this off a takedown that he gets on me so as he lands he won't be in correct posture since his weight isn't able to help him due to my knee holding it off. Also, I can grab his near side arm and look for the arm drag to the back or if I see it, attempt to kimura his other arm which leads me to #4.

    4) Kimura

    Yep, an actual submission to help out here. Usually, I will not get the submission unless I surprise him or if he's less skilled or what not. However, in order for him to counter the kimura he must posture up to try and straighten and pull his arm out. If he does this, I maintain the figure 4 grip and do a hip escape and throw my hips over right into a belly down armbar. Another thing he will do is try to "re-kimura" you. He can clasp both his hands and force your arms up. If you do not let go you will be kimura'd. So if he does this, his arms fly upwards which means it's a perfect time for me to simutaneously shoot for the underhook and/or shoot my other arm under his legs and throw myself under him. If this doesn't work for whatever reason. I will push him away. (If I feel him beating me and his weight coming)
    So then I can throw in my knee for long distance half guard and play from there. (Look for Kimura again, arm drag, try to shoot back quickly, etc)

    5) Double Paw Grip

    I saw this in this super long half guard instructional that's like an hour and a half from some guys name Indrek Reiland and Jorge Matsi from SBG. Aesopian wrote about double paw gripping as well. I feel much safer vs the crossface using this. I will use it when I find he's giving me a hard time with getting the underhook, or I will just take my underhooking arm out if I feel I am about to lose it and reinforcement the other arm blocking the cross face. Also if I double paw I can use my top arm's elbow to push it into his throat/face/chest to create space and get the underhook back OR use it like Zankou says and throw his cross facing arm over your head. It's easier cause you got 2 on 1 right? Once you can throw it over, dive under him. It's timing, as he tries to cross face you, throwing both arms into double paw allows you to throw the arm in motion over your head much easier. If you can't throw it over your head try pressing his arm towards his body and since both arms are near, you can try #4 and kimura him from there. Another thing I've found with double paw is I can just take the arm back and underhook again if I feel the opportunity presents itself. One neat little trick that's more cool but somewhat practical is I will double paw him and I will push his cross facing arm up high. If I can keep it there and pummel for the underhook I will pass his cross facing arm off over his back and into my hand that's underhook. Can you picture it? Thumbless grip of course, then I will have a lot more leverage to roll him over me. (Plan B lookin sweep) I haven't tried that one much just saw it today, can't wait till tomorrow to field test it!

    6) Using your whole body, "see sawing", etc

    I'm not sure if this should have it's own section but oh well. This is rather obvious but use your whole body in combination with one another. That means you will crunch your knee's into your body as you turn onto your side. He will cross face or what not and as you crunch up use the "brush your hair" technique. The first time I asked my main instructor how to play half guard he said "You gotta go one way and when he commits his weight the other way, go with it and etc". That didn't make sense to my 2 month white belt newbness at the time, but now it's so key to the half guard game in general. What I notice is people don't really combo things up cause they are so fixated on one technique.

    For example, tonight I saw one of my buddies who's really gettin into half guard roll with a big strong wrestler. He had the underhook and was on his side, all good right? Yes and no, yes because he had correct posture and no because the next thing he did was just lay there and try to reach for the guys foot and go for the old school sweep. The wrestler just kept powering his foot out. He tried it like 6 times, then it clicked and as the wrestler straightened his leg out my buddy went for the Plan B sweep and dove under the guy and cupped his knee and rolled hard the other way and got on top.

    Basically, he was just using 1 arm vs the guys weight and leg strength. Then he realized, he would combo it up and use his hips and whole body. This makes me think about when I first heard people say Jiu Jitsu's all in the hips and if you go vs someone good, you have to combo attacks and/or utilize setups. It's all in the hips came to mind because sometimes we forget how to do certain things and neglect small details like...well moving your hips. Just like with a kimura if someone grips hard pull the kimura'd him close to your body and pull and turn with your HIPS. I always see people using pure arm strength and not getting it. Also with the combos and setups statement. Well, he was so set on the old school he forgot about plan B so...

    In conclusion what im saying is just practice these a bit, combo them up. If your opponent is worried about one thing go for another. I know I'm just preaching to the choir here but it's very crucial that you combo up your techniques for maximum efficiency..

    Anyways, it's late and I'm tired and I gotta be at the gym at 8 in the morning. Hope this was some help in some way!
     
  16. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    last couple of posts are great. been a while since I checked this, really nice stuff. Just wanted to say thanks.
     
  17. BCarr

    BCarr Blue Belt

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    Good stuff. Looks like I've been spending way too much time with my Jeep group. Need to get back to the grappling! :redface:
     
  18. Aesopian

    Aesopian Brown Belt

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    I'm trying to start a new thread with videos of this and a lot of other half guard stuff, but I keep getting a blank page when I hit submit. :(
     
  19. Aesopian

    Aesopian Brown Belt

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  20. green_machine

    green_machine Orange Belt

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    Aesop, thanks for the video explanation. Also, what's up with your site?
     

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