Getting BJJ guys to do Judo

[kintana]

I think the point of my post was the exact opposite, that it's extremely hard to do, and once you are both clinched up with grips, it's almost impossible to take down a good judo guy if you don't have similar or better judo skills.

On the other hand, the answer to your question is pretty obvious ... wrestling. The only times I have ever had success at taking down judo guys standing, it has been with straightforward wrestling, particularly with deep level changes and penetration shots ... duckunders, double legs, etc. Throwing and foot sweeps are basically impossible. And letting the other guy get his grips is a terrible idea. Once he gets grips, forget about doing anything.

I can only surmise that judo competitors will become increasingly vulnerable to wrestling, what with the recent rule changes. On the other hand, so many people are cross-training nowadays that maybe it all evens out.

In BJJ competitions I have participated in most people shoot for a single leg or double leg then a uchi mata or o soto gari. Though i competed only in white and blue belt. Maybe other belts there is more judo.

Guard pullers are everywhere even i was a big guard puller. That is why I worked on my takedowns and wrestling to competent in stand up. I just got tired of being one dimensional and not getting top position right away. Also after doing 4 to 5 fights guys start to pick up on your guard pulling.

I believe it is important to have at least 3 solid takedown moves. I also like Judo I find training the art beneficial to me as a martial artist.

Still when it comes to a BJJ or grappling match I find wrestling for me is better. Every body I fought stay very low to the ground. So it is hard to get a good lapel grip and I am not that good at judo that I can force it.

 

[Uchi Mata]

What weight class do you fight in, Uchi Mata? In most heavyweight and above matches, at least at a regional level, almost seem to be decided by who gets the takedown and top position with guard-pulling being rare. I did a tournament a while ago at blue belt Super-Heavy and out of four matches only one guy pulled guard (and he had missed his weight so was the smallest in the category).

I fight HW or MHW. I thought I put something in that reply about that being more true if he was a small guy, I guess I left it out. I would agree that the heavier you get the more TDs and standup grappling matter, though there are a lot of good big guys who will pull guard, like Xande Ribeiro and Bernardo Faria for example. Especially if they're fighting someone who is good at Judo.

 

[georgejjr]

to be honest, I'm only really interested in stopping closed guard pulls, which is easier but hard to practice because people don't want to jump closed guard on you knowing they're going to be pushed off with an awkward fall. In any case, I think it's harder than maybe you're giving it credit for, just because people do practice guard pulling quite often in many cases and some are pretty good at it.

Guard pull (where you actually pull the guy into guard as opposed to just sitting down in front of the guy) is a skill move. However, many folks who work on it have no other effective takedown (ie they're not good at any other one), and no throw or takedown works well if you know its coming.

This is as true in BJJ (wrt guard pull) as it in in judo or wrestling. No one gets anywhere in judo or wrestling with just one effective throw or takedown - you can win at recreational tournaments like that, but will never get a throw off at national or higher level competitions. Even guys like Koga (who had a fantastic ippon seoi nage) had to have three or more extremely good throws to be able to land the throw they became famous for.

So if I was competing with Jacare, or Inoue, do I think they could pull guard on me? Of course, because I'd have to watch out for so many things (mind you, both could obviously throw me an embarrassingly large number of ways ).

But if they promised that they would only do a guard pull (or uchi-mata or de-ashi-barai or a double), I suspect I could go a long time avoiding it. Throwing someone who knows what you're going to do is very hard, if that person has much experience with standing grappling. There's nothing special about a guard pull in that - its not harder to pull off against a good opponent than say seoi-nage, nor is it easier. However, many guard pullers, unlike folks with good doubles or seoi-nages, have no second and third takedowns.

You see this very clearly in MMA, where guard pull of all kinds are legal - typically the person trying it doesn't have a second takedown, and so its success rate tends to be low. Artificially low, I suspect if GSP did a guard pull it would work well, because his opponent would be watching for other things.

 

[HIMBOB]

I have been meaning to go to class but you know stuff and things.


I am not encouraged by the talk of how hard it is on the body esp the fingers. That and at the judo in my school the average student is black belt and all much bigger than me. Still been meaning to go but yeah soon I promise.

 

[seatea]

I have been meaning to go to class but you know stuff and things.


I am not encouraged by the talk of how hard it is on the body esp the fingers. That and at the judo in my school the average student is black belt and all much bigger than me. Still been meaning to go but yeah soon I promise.

I found BJJ to be harder on the fingers, due to trying to maintain control of sleeve/lapel in open guard. I've also found that black belts (on the whole) to be less likely to injure someone. Size really shouldn't be a concern when you're new to judo, barring ridiculous disparities, as you're going to get thrown anyway.

Once you got some ability to throw it can be frustrating not to have someone your own size and ability to randori with, but there are benefits also.

 

[RJ Green]

some dudes wanna lay around getting buttfucked from guard. some dudes pass guard with osotogari.

there's no reason not to train both. milk and cookies. booze and brats. punches and kicks. taters and gravy. dress like a jedi, learn the dark side.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Guard pull (where you actually pull the guy into guard as opposed to just sitting down in front of the guy) is a skill move. However, many folks who work on it have no other effective takedown (ie they're not good at any other one), and no throw or takedown works well if you know its coming.

This is as true in BJJ (wrt guard pull) as it in in judo or wrestling. No one gets anywhere in judo or wrestling with just one effective throw or takedown - you can win at recreational tournaments like that, but will never get a throw off at national or higher level competitions. Even guys like Koga (who had a fantastic ippon seoi nage) had to have three or more extremely good throws to be able to land the throw they became famous for.

So if I was competing with Jacare, or Inoue, do I think they could pull guard on me? Of course, because I'd have to watch out for so many things (mind you, both could obviously throw me an embarrassingly large number of ways ).

But if they promised that they would only do a guard pull (or uchi-mata or de-ashi-barai or a double), I suspect I could go a long time avoiding it. Throwing someone who knows what you're going to do is very hard, if that person has much experience with standing grappling. There's nothing special about a guard pull in that - its not harder to pull off against a good opponent than say seoi-nage, nor is it easier. However, many guard pullers, unlike folks with good doubles or seoi-nages, have no second and third takedowns.

You see this very clearly in MMA, where guard pull of all kinds are legal - typically the person trying it doesn't have a second takedown, and so its success rate tends to be low. Artificially low, I suspect if GSP did a guard pull it would work well, because his opponent would be watching for other things.

It depends on what you mean by guard pull. Once they touch, they can sit down. That's basically unstoppable. I agree that good gripping can stop them from getting a strong guard position right off the pull, and if you're ready for it you can usually stop closed guard jumps, but in terms of forcing a standing fight it's almost impossible if the other guy is going to sit as soon as you make contact.

And, I can't help it, GSP only has one TD and it works on everybody. All the time.

 

[Rod1]

A lot of Judo doesn't work in BJJ because BJJ guys treat it as a BJJ match, not a Judo match.

Based on the rest I'm going to assume you're a Judo guy and are looking for a pissing match. I'll bow out and let a new guy waste his time with that.

No, he said that in judo randori, the other guys cant take him down becaus he stiffs arms and bend the hip, thats understandable, because they are in a JUDO practice and trying to score in JUDO.

Thats as stupid as a judo guy going to BJJ practice and then doing BJJ randori and then claiming that BJJ guys have zero control because you can easily escape osaekomi by giving your back.

Its stupid to claim that Judo is useless because of an experience in a judo class, with judo practitioners doing judo sparring.

For we, judokas who crosstrain, we have learned that just taking the guy to the ground is 2 points, so we arent going for the high amplitude, ippon throws, we are simply using posture, grips and movement to make you flop on your ass, unless you pull guard, which is perfectly fine to me because the balance and pressure i learned from judo has made my BJJ top game better.

 

[Zankou]

Trained judo tonight ... so much hurt ... so much old ...

 

[Rod1]

It depends on what you mean by guard pull. Once they touch, they can sit down. That's basically unstoppable. I agree that good gripping can stop them from getting a strong guard position right off the pull, and if you're ready for it you can usually stop closed guard jumps, but in terms of forcing a standing fight it's almost impossible if the other guy is going to sit as soon as you make contact.

And, I can't help it, GSP only has one TD and it works on everybody. All the time.

So if you have a sick top game, training judo seems like a smart choice.

 

[Einarr]

So if you have a sick top game, training judo seems like a smart choice.

Yup.

The strangest thing that I encounter quite frequently is BJJ guys with a great top game but no stand-up whatsoever. I've met several guys who have great passing, great top control, would sooner knee-wrestle than pull guard from the knees but never spar from standing, can't gripfight standing, and will go down from the first throw or footsweep you attack with. It's just bizarre.

 

[Il Wop-O]

So judo doesnt works in BJJ because you treat judo randori as a BJJ match?

You can stiff arm and bend all you want, that may prevent me to throw you for ippon, sure but in BJJ im not looking for ippon, ill just break your balance and drag you to the ground, 2 points for me and a better position.

You pull guard? its ok, my top game is my best game and be sure you will pull guard in my terms, not yours.

Agreed 100%. Nothing more to add.

 

[Il Wop-O]

because its much easier to take someone down with a double or single, it doesnt require as much technique as big throws, and both of them are worth the same ammount of points, not to mention, rarely have enough time to set up a big throw, most of the times, someone is pulling guard.

I'm in my 40s. I have bad knees, and as a result, I have 2 or 3 good shots in me until I lose my ability for a good penetration into a single or double. Conversely, I have much better success with judo or clinch-based wrestling takedowns. Turning throws work great when my opponent is going forward, inside & outside trips as well as osotos are great for guys backing away or sitting their weight down. And if a guy goes "BJJ posture" w/ stiff-arms, that's time for uchi mata. Furthermore, if I'm going to pull guard, you can bet your ass I'm going for tomoenage or yoko tomoenage. Hit the throw, or pull guard as a backup in case it fails.

I just cannot see a downside to adding judo to your grappling game. Even if you have no plans to use it as a part of your competition toolbox, I would think you'd want to be aware enough to counter it or land well, and that you might want to be able to teach it some day.

 

[PoundSand]

I am not encouraged by the talk of how hard it is on the body esp the fingers. That and at the judo in my school the average student is black belt and all much bigger than me. Still been meaning to go but yeah soon I promise.

i find bjj tougher on the fingers, and having a school full of black belts to go to is a good thing.

 

[HIMBOB]

Yup.

The strangest thing that I encounter quite frequently is BJJ guys with a great top game but no stand-up whatsoever. I've met several guys who have great passing, great top control, would sooner knee-wrestle than pull guard from the knees but never spar from standing, can't gripfight standing, and will go down from the first throw or footsweep you attack with. It's just bizarre.

Besides the bit in Italics that sounds like me.

 

[HIMBOB]

i find bjj tougher on the fingers, and having a school full of black belts to go to is a good thing.

The average standard in class is no small part of the reason I feel bad for not going.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I'm in my 40s. I have bad knees, and as a result, I have 2 or 3 good shots in me until I lose my ability for a good penetration into a single or double. Conversely, I have much better success with judo or clinch-based wrestling takedowns. Turning throws work great when my opponent is going forward, inside & outside trips as well as osotos are great for guys backing away or sitting their weight down. And if a guy goes "BJJ posture" w/ stiff-arms, that's time for uchi mata. Furthermore, if I'm going to pull guard, you can bet your ass I'm going for tomoenage or yoko tomoenage. Hit the throw, or pull guard as a backup in case it fails.

I just cannot see a downside to adding judo to your grappling game. Even if you have no plans to use it as a part of your competition toolbox, I would think you'd want to be aware enough to counter it or land well, and that you might want to be able to teach it some day.

The downside is that you could be spending that time working in something more beneficial to your bjj, I'm not saying uou should not train stand up, you should, but going to a judo class these days is just not the most efficient way to train stand up... Kind of like training Mma with the gi... It will be beneficial to your overall game, but there's better ways to train...

 

[faixabranca]

Judo is hamstrung by stupid restrictions set in place by the morons in the IJF. Because most clubs compete that I have seen, they don't teach the full Judo curriculum.

No te guruma, morote gari or kibisu gaeshi is retarded. Again, my experience is not huge but those takedowns were effective in wrestling when I did that sport and looked very effective in pre-castrated Judo.

Also, one reason people don't train Judo seems to be a fear of being thrown. Probably because no one taught them to take a fall but even mighty Einarr must agree getting planted repeatedly (especially above 90kg) with o soto gari and other big throws does leave you feeling a tad beat down.

Also, having a spastic BJJ white belt launch me scares the bejesus outta me.

 

[Zankou]

O soto gari is not even the worst, for me the worst seem to be throws where your opponent "blocks" you, such that the tension builds and then you get whipped hard straight over the guy. Seoi nage and uchimata aren't so bad because they are comparatively smooth, but harai goshi, tai otoshi, some others are just nasty.

Getting thrown high and fast when you are near 200 pounds or more is just no fun. To me, it's worse than being leveled with osoto. Granted, I've never been hit with Einarr's osoto. Otherwise I wouldn't be typing this.

 

[faixabranca]

O soto gari is not even the worst, for me the worst seem to be throws where your opponent "blocks" you, such that the tension builds and then you get whipped hard straight over the guy. Seoi nage and uchimata aren't so bad because they are comparatively smooth, but harai goshi, tai otoshi, some others are just nasty.

Getting thrown high and fast when you are near 200 pounds or more is just no fun. To me, it's worse than being leveled with osoto. Granted, I've never been hit with Einarr's osoto. Otherwise I wouldn't be typing this.

You are right about Taiotoshi. God damn it hurt.

Also, I rode the harai goshi express many times as a black belt loved that throw in my old club. I can remember being picked as uke because I was his size when he was teaching harai. I think you could hear me gulp across the room.

O soto hurt, I think just because some of the black belts specialized in taking my legs right the fuck out.