Getting BJJ guys to do Judo

[valjits]

I have a great judo coach i personally don't like judo but i think it is very important to train I use my judo mostly to counter wrestling. if a guy shots in on a single i start to hike them up and hit a uchi mata or a heriagoshi.

 

[GJJNY]

So judo doesnt works in BJJ because you treat judo randori as a BJJ match?

You can stiff arm and bend all you want, that may prevent me to throw you for ippon, sure but in BJJ im not looking for ippon, ill just break your balance and drag you to the ground, 2 points for me and a better position.

You pull guard? its ok, my top game is my best game and be sure you will pull guard in my terms, not yours.

A lot of Judo doesn't work in BJJ because BJJ guys treat it as a BJJ match, not a Judo match.

Based on the rest I'm going to assume you're a Judo guy and are looking for a pissing match. I'll bow out and let a new guy waste his time with that.

 

[georgejjr]

As for grip fighting preventing guard pulls, I wish that were true. You don't need especially good grips to pull guard, and grips that might not be so good for throwing can be fine for sweeping. Typically it's when I'm really dominating grips that people pull guard, because that's when they feel in danger of being thrown.

That's true for BJJ competitions where resisting the pull is penalized. Its not true for ones where you're not obliged to go to the ground with a pull - in fact, I've generally found it trivial to keep on my feet against even very good pullers (with as much BJJ experience as I have judo and wrestling experience - and I competed nationally in judo and in wrestling) with the combination of grip fighting and just being solid on the feet. (You see the same thing MMA btw, even when guys like Roger Gracie or Maia try it, pulling guard against someone who doesn't want to the go to the ground is a lot harder than you'd think if you're only working with people who agree to go to the ground).

The practice is to strip grips quickly and back off when the guard pull or jump occurs. Against someone without good gripping experience (or an excellent shot) that's very easy to do. The normal outcome of a guard pull under those circumstances is that your opponent is on his butt with one hand on your gi, typically a sleeve, while you're comfortably standing a couple of feet away ... pretty normal situation actually in old (where old means pre-1980) judo, where sacrifice throws were used as a guard pull by ground specialists, and mate was a reluctant call. There'd be a number of scrambling options that could go on for a minute or so in that situation before the referee got bored ... and it can be very hard to pull someone to the ground with you from that situation. I've tried it at national level from both on the ground and on the feet, and its much better to be on your feet, you generally just let go on the ground because its so hard to get someone to the ground with just one hand on them. Your hand will usually get tired long before their legs give out, and the smarter ones would pull you around the mats just to tire out your hand, without letting you get close enough to do anything with the grip.

Give it a try, if you've done a lot of grip fighting and are used to the footwork for avoiding contact you'll be surprised by how easy it is. Of course, that footwork is again not much practiced in modern judo, since now mate takes care of it for you. Once again, thank you IJF.

Of course, in some (but not all) BJJ tournaments that's called stalling, since some referees assume that resisting the pull is anti-engagement. If that's what you mean, then yes, grip fighting doesn't really stop guard pulls, because stopping the pull gets you penalized in those tournaments.

 

[ChainFlow]

Truly, though, stiff arming doesn't stop a takedown or throw.

It stops some, but leaves you more vulnerable to others. And shuts down your offense completely.

 

[winterbike]

Last year I got attacked by a drunk dude on a bridge. Space was limited (1 meter wide sidewalk, 20 meter drop on one side, cars going at 70km/h on the other) and I clinched with him to avoid being sucker punched and to avoid being pushed on the road. I quickly realized I couldn't go to the ground, and couldn't go for a single/double in case we rolled and fell from the sidewalk. The only thing I could come up with was to try to take him down with a shitty inside leg trip, but at that point he calmed down and I let go of him.

I realized I was scared like a bitch of the clinch game (in competitions too) since I didn't feel like I had balance, I was afraid of falling, and I didn't know enough what to do from there. I figured judo would help with that, so I've been training doing some 3-4x/week for the last month and I can already see a difference in my balance and my confidence in the stand up. That's what I'd use to sell it to BJJ guys.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

That's true for BJJ competitions where resisting the pull is penalized. Its not true for ones where you're not obliged to go to the ground with a pull - in fact, I've generally found it trivial to keep on my feet against even very good pullers (with as much BJJ experience as I have judo and wrestling experience - and I competed nationally in judo and in wrestling) with the combination of grip fighting and just being solid on the feet. (You see the same thing MMA btw, even when guys like Roger Gracie or Maia try it, pulling guard against someone who doesn't want to the go to the ground is a lot harder than you'd think if you're only working with people who agree to go to the ground).

The practice is to strip grips quickly and back off when the guard pull or jump occurs. Against someone without good gripping experience (or an excellent shot) that's very easy to do. The normal outcome of a guard pull under those circumstances is that your opponent is on his butt with one hand on your gi, typically a sleeve, while you're comfortably standing a couple of feet away ... pretty normal situation actually in old (where old means pre-1980) judo, where sacrifice throws were used as a guard pull by ground specialists, and mate was a reluctant call. There'd be a number of scrambling options that could go on for a minute or so in that situation before the referee got bored ... and it can be very hard to pull someone to the ground with you from that situation. I've tried it at national level from both on the ground and on the feet, and its much better to be on your feet, you generally just let go on the ground because its so hard to get someone to the ground with just one hand on them. Your hand will usually get tired long before their legs give out, and the smarter ones would pull you around the mats just to tire out your hand, without letting you get close enough to do anything with the grip.

Give it a try, if you've done a lot of grip fighting and are used to the footwork for avoiding contact you'll be surprised by how easy it is. Of course, that footwork is again not much practiced in modern judo, since now mate takes care of it for you. Once again, thank you IJF.

Of course, in some (but not all) BJJ tournaments that's called stalling, since some referees assume that resisting the pull is anti-engagement. If that's what you mean, then yes, grip fighting doesn't really stop guard pulls, because stopping the pull gets you penalized in those tournaments.

I believe the term guard pull is used to name everything it involves sitting on your ass, which is basically impossible to stop someone from doing it, and actually right now is a much better option than pulling guard, since most guys play some sort of open guard...

 

[georgejjr]

I believe the term guard pull is used to name everything it involves sitting on your ass, which is basically impossible to stop someone from doing it, and actually right now is a much better option than pulling guard, since most guys play some sort of open guard...

Okay, I guess I'm behind the times, I still think of a guard pull as something that pulls the guy into your guard (which is actually a skilled move when done properly), though now that you mention it, I have noticed people using it to just mean sit down. I thought they were using it inappropriately - guess I'm just old :icon_cry2

If guard pulls means the guy just sits down, then yes, there's nothing that can be done about it.

And as I said before, I see nothing wrong with someone just sitting down in a BJJ match, any more than I see someone scrambling to his feet in wrestling or judo. BJJ mainly occurs on the ground, and it makes sense not to waste time anywhere else.

They have ne-waza competitions in judo where both contestants start on their knees, and I've wondered if that might not be a good option for BJJ. I have to admit the older I get, the more attractive ground work becomes (gravity seems stronger than it was when I was younger, and the sudden stop at the end of a throw more sudden than I remember it being a couple of decades ago), and starting on the ground isn't a bad way to go for a sport which is based on ground work - and BJJ's ground work is far richer than judo's ever was, let alone the joke that is much of current judo ne-waza.

 

[Kingbedlam]

It is not the best investment for your time, IMO, if you are just looking to adapt it to BJJ competition and hoping to get offense out of it. Really ouchi gari and kouchi gari are the best judo moves for BJJ IMO, because they tend to integrate fairly well with the BJJ takedown battle, and you won't learn them to any real degree in BJJ takedown classes. Forward throws are so hard to execute against a defensive opponent that you usually have to be vastly more skilled than your opponent (see Travis Stevens) to get them to work, particularly at upper BJJ levels where everybody usually has a mediocre amount of standup experience.

But it's nice to get takedown defense from judo, and it is (IMO) a blast to train for its own purposes. There's a lot of value to simply being a bitch to take down in the gi, even if you are a guard puller. A lot of times your opponent will be forced to pull guard if you have good judo, even when (as in the higher weight divisions) that isn't necessarily advantageous to them. In the lower divisions, it's much less advantageous.

Locking grips with a solid judo black belt is an eye-opening experience. Once they get grips, there isn't much you can do beside pull guard. I would think that if you show BJJ guys this, they will realize how valuable it is to be able to stand up like that.

Not to start a flame war, but how would a Bjj partitioner take down a Judo practitioner? It sounds like an advanced Judoka would be very had to take to the mat.

 

[The Colonel]

Its funny, I'm just looking for advice on how I can get some guys from BJJ to come into the judo club to help attendance, and instead it gets turned into a BJJ vs Judo thread.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Not to start a flame war, but how would a Bjj partitioner take down a Judo practitioner? It sounds like an advanced Judoka would be very had to take to the mat.

in competition? pull guard...

anyways, by new IJF standards, it wont be long till the new cast of judokas cant stop a double leg or a single leg...

 

[Spazzmaster]

Its funny, I'm just looking for advice on how I can get some guys from BJJ to come into the judo club to help attendance, and instead it gets turned into a BJJ vs Judo thread.

Same as it ever was! Come on you knew this would happen

You could start a thread about nose picking and it would turn into BJJ vs Judo

 

[metallifan3091]

Read my second post

I did, and I largely agree with you. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, based on my relatively limited experience in judo and higher (but still limited) experience in BJJ competition, and especially as small guy (140ish lbs) ashi and sutemi waza are more directly applicable to my BJJ game than hip and shoulder throws. I still love those, and I'm working to make them a significant part of my game, but in the mean time, if I can hit sasae tsurikomi ashi or sumi gaeshi in BJJ, you can bet that I'm going to.

Please trust me when I'm saying that I'm not trying to start a fight. You have a significant amount more judo experience than I do (i think) and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. I'm just offering my opinion based on personal experience. I love judo, and if I love that I have the opportunity to learn it along with BJJ.

 

[Alex88]

People saying judo doesnt translate well into BJJ are insane. I competed 2 weeks ago at blue belt , we were 5 guys in the division.One of them was a judo black belt , he pretty much took everyone down in a matter of seconds and won the whole thing with his top game.Then he proceeded to win the absolute division too. I would do Judo too If I could but I already train so much , no time left for it.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That's true for BJJ competitions where resisting the pull is penalized. Its not true for ones where you're not obliged to go to the ground with a pull - in fact, I've generally found it trivial to keep on my feet against even very good pullers (with as much BJJ experience as I have judo and wrestling experience - and I competed nationally in judo and in wrestling) with the combination of grip fighting and just being solid on the feet. (You see the same thing MMA btw, even when guys like Roger Gracie or Maia try it, pulling guard against someone who doesn't want to the go to the ground is a lot harder than you'd think if you're only working with people who agree to go to the ground).

The practice is to strip grips quickly and back off when the guard pull or jump occurs. Against someone without good gripping experience (or an excellent shot) that's very easy to do. The normal outcome of a guard pull under those circumstances is that your opponent is on his butt with one hand on your gi, typically a sleeve, while you're comfortably standing a couple of feet away ... pretty normal situation actually in old (where old means pre-1980) judo, where sacrifice throws were used as a guard pull by ground specialists, and mate was a reluctant call. There'd be a number of scrambling options that could go on for a minute or so in that situation before the referee got bored ... and it can be very hard to pull someone to the ground with you from that situation. I've tried it at national level from both on the ground and on the feet, and its much better to be on your feet, you generally just let go on the ground because its so hard to get someone to the ground with just one hand on them. Your hand will usually get tired long before their legs give out, and the smarter ones would pull you around the mats just to tire out your hand, without letting you get close enough to do anything with the grip.

Give it a try, if you've done a lot of grip fighting and are used to the footwork for avoiding contact you'll be surprised by how easy it is. Of course, that footwork is again not much practiced in modern judo, since now mate takes care of it for you. Once again, thank you IJF.

Of course, in some (but not all) BJJ tournaments that's called stalling, since some referees assume that resisting the pull is anti-engagement. If that's what you mean, then yes, grip fighting doesn't really stop guard pulls, because stopping the pull gets you penalized in those tournaments.

to be honest, I'm only really interested in stopping closed guard pulls, which is easier but hard to practice because people don't want to jump closed guard on you knowing they're going to be pushed off with an awkward fall. In any case, I think it's harder than maybe you're giving it credit for, just because people do practice guard pulling quite often in many cases and some are pretty good at it.

 

[Spazzmaster]

PI would do Judo too If I could but I already train so much , no time left for it.

Uh, that's kind of the point. All of us have limited training time. Unless you are a full time athlete, your training time gets more and more limited as you grow older and gain more real world responsibilities. With that in mind, is judo the best use of your training time if you are primarily interested in BJJ?

My personal feeling is that if you train judo, you should do it and love it for its own sake instead of thinking about how it might improve your BJJ game.

One poster mentioned how he is into judo kata practice, he just finds it enjoyable. I can totally understand and respect that, even if it is not my thing.

 

[Uchi Mata]

People saying judo doesnt translate well into BJJ are insane. I competed 2 weeks ago at blue belt , we were 5 guys in the division.One of them was a judo black belt , he pretty much took everyone down in a matter of seconds and won the whole thing with his top game.Then he proceeded to win the absolute division too. I would do Judo too If I could but I already train so much , no time left for it.

The advantages of a Judo black belt in a blue belt division go way beyond having good TDs, and have a lot more to do with being an experienced grappler. Sadly, by the time that guy gets to purple everyone will just pull guard on him and only his BJJ will matter.

 

[darkgojira]

I did, and I largely agree with you. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, based on my relatively limited experience in judo and higher (but still limited) experience in BJJ competition, and especially as small guy (140ish lbs) ashi and sutemi waza are more directly applicable to my BJJ game than hip and shoulder throws. I still love those, and I'm working to make them a significant part of my game, but in the mean time, if I can hit sasae tsurikomi ashi or sumi gaeshi in BJJ, you can bet that I'm going to.

Please trust me when I'm saying that I'm not trying to start a fight. You have a significant amount more judo experience than I do (i think) and I'm sure that you know what you're talking about. I'm just offering my opinion based on personal experience. I love judo, and if I love that I have the opportunity to learn it along with BJJ.

Im not tryong to start a war, just pointing things out that people may not be aware of. I'm 130lb myself, so i can feel for you at this stage. All i could do was kouchi and ouchi until green belt. Then i really started focusing on hip and shoulder throws even tho i kept failing at them. Eventually you get over the hump and it starts to feel natural. Now my morote, ososto, and uchi mata are useable against all lower belts and some black belts. I would never have gotten to that point if i had just stuck with ashi waza and sutemi waza during randori. Tournament is different tho, you go woth your best stuff, but if that doesnt work, you should have some backup throws or pickups/leg grabs.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

People saying judo doesnt translate well into BJJ are insane. I competed 2 weeks ago at blue belt , we were 5 guys in the division.One of them was a judo black belt , he pretty much took everyone down in a matter of seconds and won the whole thing with his top game.Then he proceeded to win the absolute division too. I would do Judo too If I could but I already train so much , no time left for it.

judo black belt is a very very wide term, we got one in class, and I literally play with him on the ground, he is a very very white belt, his stand up is good though. We also had a judo black belt olympian from my country (which does not says a lot but he is one of the best in here), and my fellow white belt at the time, subed him like 3 times in 5 minutes... then you could find world class judo black betls that are obviusly going to run over a local competition at blue even purple....

 

[Zankou]

Not to start a flame war, but how would a Bjj partitioner take down a Judo practitioner? It sounds like an advanced Judoka would be very had to take to the mat.

I think the point of my post was the exact opposite, that it's extremely hard to do, and once you are both clinched up with grips, it's almost impossible to take down a good judo guy if you don't have similar or better judo skills.

On the other hand, the answer to your question is pretty obvious ... wrestling. The only times I have ever had success at taking down judo guys standing, it has been with straightforward wrestling, particularly with deep level changes and penetration shots ... duckunders, double legs, etc. Throwing and foot sweeps are basically impossible. And letting the other guy get his grips is a terrible idea. Once he gets grips, forget about doing anything.

I can only surmise that judo competitors will become increasingly vulnerable to wrestling, what with the recent rule changes. On the other hand, so many people are cross-training nowadays that maybe it all evens out.

 

[Einarr]

The advantages of a Judo black belt in a blue belt division go way beyond having good TDs, and have a lot more to do with being an experienced grappler. Sadly, by the time that guy gets to purple everyone will just pull guard on him and only his BJJ will matter.

What weight class do you fight in, Uchi Mata? In most heavyweight and above matches, at least at a regional level, almost seem to be decided by who gets the takedown and top position with guard-pulling being rare. I did a tournament a while ago at blue belt Super-Heavy and out of four matches only one guy pulled guard (and he had missed his weight so was the smallest in the category).