Getting BJJ guys to do Judo

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by The Colonel, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    So my academy has a fantastic jiu-jitsu program but the judo club there is limping along. We only have judo two nights out of the week and it is a good night if there are 4-5 people there, including the instructor.

    I started out doing BJJ and still do, but I love judo. It helps your stand up game tremendously and though I am at best an orange belt in judo (I would test and get promoted, but like I said, things are pretty lax because of the low turn outs) I regularly toss BJJ purple belts around whenever we sucker them into doing a little randori pretty effortlessly.

    They always thank me afterwards and are surprised that I didn't hurt them. I think everyone has these negative stereotypes about judo just wrecking your body. Sure, it does, but that is competition judo. 99% of the judo guys in my club are 1st and 2nd degree black belts, are a little older, and are done with competition judo.

    It makes me sad because these guys have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share but no one comes to judo class. I worry that eventually the head instructors will just say screw it and cancel the whole program. The few judo guys we have cross train in BJJ, but the vast majority of the BJJ guys (except me) never go to judo. WTF?
     
  2. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Maybe they're just not interested.
     
  3. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    BJJ guys hate falling, and if you're under ~195 lbs chances are you'll rarely if ever get to use your Judo in a BJJ match since someone always pulls guard. Plus, BJJ standup grappling is very, very different than Judo, and a lot of guys who start trying Judo will get frustrated when their BJJ opponents are bent over at the waist stiff arming them, which while illegal in Judo is pretty much every BJJ standup match.

    I love Judo, it was my first grappling art, but when I teach TDs for BJJ there's actually very little Judo aside from gripping strategies. The stances are so different, and the goal is different (Judo: throw them on their back, who cares if they take yours on the way down? BJJ: start on top with 2 points, and don't give up position). Frankly, both in rule set and in the TDs that work best, wrestling is much better for BJJ than Judo. I think if BJJ guys want to do Judo they should because it helps gripping and certainly you will catch a throw now and again, but you need to do it for its own sake because if your goal is to optimize your BJJ unless you're a pretty big dude then Judo is probably not as good a use of time as just training more BJJ.
     
  4. Saenchai

    Saenchai Purple Belt

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    Lapel Snap down = Forced Turtle = Win for me?

    And heres the thing everyone is going wrong with Judo. Trying to throw so that they land on their back.. NO! THROW so you can get a TD (aka wrestling 3 limbs on the floor = TD) Thats what you want in BJJ not, the immediate side control.
     
  5. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    judo is not as fun as bjj, and if you are training olympic judo, then they will not get that much out of it anymore, better to train stand up for bjj in a bjj class (although its pretty rare to see good stand up training in bjj class)

    although, if its an old school judo class, that give a fuck about olympic rules, thats very good for bjj, IMHO.
     
  6. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    People are shy to cross train martial arts because the people who teach martial arts always try to sell you a whole package instead of helping you for what you need it for.

    I was never interested in wrestling or BJJ because it is completely against my personality to throw someone on the ground, sit on their chest, and lock their arm. It isn't like I thought that was a bad way of fighting. It is that I got into martial arts for self defense - not just self defense - but to help me feel like I didn't need to fight. I was good at counter kicking and hiding behind a jab while gtfo. I didn't want to fireman carry people and working on it was a combination of danger and busy work, just so I could practice the technical stand-up and fighting for grip dominance.

    So I never went to wrestling class. I waited until I found MMA teachers who could help me.

    BJJ guys don't want to learn all of judo. They want judo that isn't especially dangerous and wrecking to the body, and they want stuff that they can directly apply to BJJ. They don't want to learn 64 throws. They want a handful that the attacker can initiate and that they can get good at right away.

    If a wrestling instructor wants to attract kick boxers, he can't come out and say, "here are 100 wrestling moves. You will not be able to do them on a wrestler when we spar because we are wasting your time with this shit." He needs to say, "I am going to teach you to do what you do better. Here is the short list of what you need to know. Once you have it, we can expand on it if you are interested."

    That's totally different.

    Same for Judo. If someone isn't trying to compete in Judo or be a black belt in Judo, they aren't going to want 60 some throws that they have to learn and to be thrown 1000 times by each for busy work on their way to a goal they don't care about - a program that isn't thinking about them at all.

    It has to be sold as something useful.

    "Each class will present several techniques at once. Judo students, perform this technique. Submission grapplers, perform this technique, which you will find directly useful."
     
  7. Einarr

    Einarr Banned Banned

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    That's just your opinion, which you've stated as a fact in pretty much every judo thread that comes up. I train both, BJJ more simply due to greater availability in my area, and find both equally enjoyable. If you are shit at throwing then it won't be much fun, maybe that's your problem?
     
  8. SD619BJJ

    SD619BJJ White Belt

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    Maybe after they do their first BJJ tournament and realize that they start standing and guard pulling is for bitches then they might take more interest.
     
  9. Kaffe

    Kaffe Brown Belt

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    Judo requires too much time invested to become proficient in for most people who already train BJJ. Rules like no leg grabs at all, gripping restrictions and no double hand grip breaks further limits its usefulness. You'll get an advantage over other BJJ guys standing, but your time is likely better spent further improving your buttflopping if you want to compete.

    T'is a shame, as throwing is bloody awesome.
     
  10. ChainFlow

    ChainFlow Brown Belt

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    The no leg-grabbing rule really crippled Judo's usefulness for BJJ. Honestly, I can't recommend it to any BJJ guys who are interested in cross-training anymore. Not worth the time.

    What ends up happening is that they get a novice understanding of Judo, try to do throws, but get taken down with a single or ankle pick because they never defend against them in Judo (or BJJ) and now they're worse off than if they had just pulled guard.

    If you're already brown belt level or above in Judo you can easily make it work in a BJJ context, but it's hard to sell the idea of doing Judo for a few years just to be able to start doing throws.

    Wrestling, and learn gi takedowns and gripfighting from someone who has a Judo background and understands the gi game. Quicker to learn, more effective, no huge period where you're actually less effective than you otherwise would have been.

    Now, if the prospective student is interested in self-defense as opposed to improving their IBJJF game, it's really easy to sell the idea of ippon throws being awesome. That's a separate issue and something that I have successfully recruited BJJ guys with.
     
  11. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    The person who pulls guard normally win, just FYI. It's not by a large margin, but pulling guard in a BJJ match is a totally legit strategy. It's not just little guys either, I can show you matches were Andre Galvao, Braulio Estima (plenty), Rodolfo Viera, Roger Gracie, and Buchecha all pull guard. I wouldn't call any of them bitches. Hell, even guys with great TDs like Claudio Calasans pull guard often because in many cases it makes sense strategically. But if it makes you feel better to call guard pullers bitches after they pull, sweep, and submit you, by all means continue to do so.
     
  12. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    it is a fact that rolling and not getting thrown to the mats is funner than getting thrown countless time, and I suspect you get thrown a lot in the begging of your trianing, at least of course, your einarr, you dont ever suck, not even at your first day of class...

    I mean, yeah theres no absolutes, but at least you are some kind of sadomasochist, then not getting hurt will always be more fun than getting hurt, and you get hurt enough in bjj classes to go to judo classes and get hurt even more...

    but again, youre einnar, so even injuries stay away from you, you'll probably osoto othem too, so I can see your point.
     
  13. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    xande pulled on keenan, is xande a bitch too?
     
  14. TheHereticJay

    TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    Judo is hard work. BJJ guys are lazy. It's the same with trying to get em to do Sambo, we'll have 6 people tops on a good day.
     
  15. Jonas g33k

    Jonas g33k Blue Belt

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    I've recently asked a few BJJ guys to be my dummy while I do uchi komi after my BJJ classes. At first they where like "uh ok man, whatever...". But as I did uchi komi they became more and more curious about judo throws, and now they give me some feedback about their balance after my moves. I don't throw them too much (once after 10 uchi komi and it's a gentle throw). I don't expect them to learn judo but at least their view of this art changed a bit.
     
  16. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Diminishing returns.
     
  17. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I would also mention that most people who really want to do Judo are at Judo dojos. Those typically don't have a BJJ class. If they did, it would probably not be well attended. They are two different sports, and the things people like about BJJ are often not as prevalent in Judo (Judo requires more athleticism and the training is generally much more intense. I also find it hard to get more than 4-5 guys to come to really intense BJJ drilling sessions).
     
  18. TSO

    TSO Cookie monster belt

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    The Judo classes were canceled at my club because the instructor left since there were only two of us regularly taking the classes. I think the biggest class was 5 guys.
     
  19. Einarr

    Einarr Banned Banned

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    Ahh, I see. You said "Judo is less fun than BJJ" when what you actually meant to say was "I'm too scared to get thrown repeatedly".

    Fuuuuuuck. Anyone who has the opportunity to train Sambo and doesn't must have some kind of severe mental defect.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  20. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    It is about time management.
    People rather focus on one style and do not have spare time to train something else.
    I am actually in the opposite situation.
    I teach 2 bjj classes in a dojo.
    The judokas can train with me for free.
     

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