Social George Bush sitting with Ellen Degeneres at the Packers vs Cowboys game: Update Ellen Responds...

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Steve-French, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    43,454
    Likes Received:
    74,573
    1. None of these comments are coherent arguments. None of this is evidence to support your claim that Bush is a war criminal.
    2. That you see all or most US presidents as war criminals underlines the lack of seriousness of your claim.
    3. If you see all or most US presidents as war criminals, do you react with similar outrage when other former presidents enjoy anodyne friendships with celebrities?
     
  2. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama Idol of Millions Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    68,796
    Likes Received:
    65,124
    Location:
    Osgiliath
    The question was what justification did we have to kill 1,000,000 innocent iraqis.
    Your response was 1. Saddam = Bad and 2. you believed the lies we were told by our government.
    Neither supports your claim that the war was justified, especially considering we did more harm to Iraq in 6 years than Saddam did in 20, AND we found no relevant WMDs. AND there was no link to Saddam and 9/11 or AQ, the reasons we were told we were going to war.
    No it does not. There are degrees to criminality and its more of an indictment of our entire society that we don't recognize the criminality of power and instead choose to celebrate it.
    Similar, but proportional, yes, I do.
     
    m25105, MMAisGod and SmilinDesperado like this.
  3. Renard

    Renard Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    11,396
    I have to wonder how much individual responsibility Bush bears vs. going with the flow of public anger after 9/11, Congress, his generals and advisors and the general objective to eliminate the Taliban which snowballed into more. Times then were different, you could feel that people wanted to go to war. It's only post hoc that people's attitude switched to completely disagreeing with the war, they weren't singing that tune initially. I don't know if he just went with the flow and what seemed correct at the time, or whether he took an active part in the deception and potential corruption.
     
  4. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    43,454
    Likes Received:
    74,573
    1. Saddam was bad. And not being young, I remember this as being very relevant to the decisions being made at the time. We had a bipartisan history of conflict with him, as did his neighbors. He also had a history of using WMDs on ethnic minorities in his own country. As far as lies, no, I don't believe they were intentional lies.
    2. The criminality of power? Lol.
    3. I neither agree with your assessment that 1 million Iraqis were killed. Though a few estimates range that high, most are significantly lower. Nor do I believe all of those people were innocent, though too many were.

    What really interests me in this thread is the need to link political disagreements with vilification of political opponents. Even in this thread you've attacked me as young, naive, and dishonest. I am none of those things. I'm looking at the same evidence you are and drawing different conclusions. The true characteristic of our age is moral arrogance imo. Are we all so certain of our own conclusions that only fools and knaves could possibly disagree with us? It's a narrow and self-righteous mindset. I much prefer Ellen's liberality.
     
  5. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    108,665
    Likes Received:
    44,672
    Location:
    the sticks
    Thats OK. Still beat Pac and the guy who slept him too.
     
    LogicalInsanity likes this.
  6. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama Idol of Millions Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    68,796
    Likes Received:
    65,124
    Location:
    Osgiliath
    Anywhere else but Sherdog I would be shocked at somebody not believing we were lied into Iraq.
    Even here, I can't recall seeing that argument in 6 years or more.
    Catch up: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...28/ari-fleischer-iraq-lies-george-w-bush-wmds

    And yeah, Saddam was a "bad guy". That was one of the major points of propaganda used to promote the war.


    And to your point about political disagreements + vilification, again there are degrees. I have family members and very good friends who are so mentally crippled they support Trump. I still love them and hang with them. None of them have killed hundreds of thousands to over a million people (lol, is that better). None of them have had people tortured. None of them have sent brave men and woman of the armed forces to fight a war based on lies; over 4,000 of them to never come home and countless more to never come home the same, whether they were crippled physically or mentally. None of them robbed our country of $6,000,000,000,000 dollars that could have supported untold domestic programs.

    I actually have no problem with Ellen sitting at a game with W (assuming it wasn't a plan to meet up there).
    I have no problem with her being polite in her exchanges with him either.
    What I do have a problem with is:
    1. her inviting him onto her show as a means of some whitewashing/ legacy revamping propaganda
    2. defending her interaction with him without addressing the real issues people have with him. if she wants to say "hey, I like this dude even after killing hundreds of thousands to a million people based on lies, then all the power to her, but she's not that brave and therefore she is a phony.
     
    m25105, MMAisGod and SmilinDesperado like this.
  7. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    43,454
    Likes Received:
    74,573
    Against my better judgment I followed your link to Vox of all places for international affairs. The first thing I noticed is that they have the figure for total deaths in the Iraq War at under 300,00. Does this make you a liar for insisting it is 1 million innocents (although I see you are walking back your earlier claims)? Or is there a range of estimates? I think you are wrong in your estimate, very wrong, but not a liar. No doubt there was also a range of estimates on the threat someone like Saddam posed to a key strategic region of the world. Bush, Blair, and their intelligence services were wrong as well, but that was far from clear at the time. They were wrong, but not liars.

    It is unsurprising to me that years later key figures in those intelligence services would get into a he said she said with the politicians they wrongly advised. Everyone wants their ass covered. Same thing happened in the Korean War when we were caught with our pants down first by the Norks and then by the Chinese.

    Now, as to the subject of the thread, lol at being OK with Ellen sitting next to Bush so long as she didn't plan to meet him there. I understand why people demonize the political opposition during the campaign, or during their administration, because you are trying to mobilize. But turn the poltical intensity off once in a while. It will do you good. But by all accounts, Bush, like Obama, is a friendly good man. It helps to be able to separate the personal from the political. Many people who can't slowly lose their humanity.
     
  8. Anung Un Rama

    Anung Un Rama Idol of Millions Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Messages:
    68,796
    Likes Received:
    65,124
    Location:
    Osgiliath
    Yeah, that was the easiest one to pull as it was at the top of the page and actually sourced its claims, But by all means continue to kill the messenger as you repeat debunked pre-war propaganda to defend your statement that the war was justified. I mean seriously what fucking year is this?

    And, no, I'm not walking back my claims, you're own research has revealed that multiple studies have concluded that near, at, or above 1,000,000 people died in the Iraq War. Why is that even controversial when our sanctions alone lead to the deaths of over 500,000 children? What I did was included a range to avoid you from deflecting, but I obviously underestimated your desire to do just that.
     
    m25105 and SmilinDesperado like this.
  9. K1levelgrappler

    K1levelgrappler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Messages:
    4,926
    Likes Received:
    13,561
  10. Crono7

    Crono7 GET TO THE CHOPPA

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,224
    Likes Received:
    726
    Fucking QFT
     
  11. SmilinDesperado

    SmilinDesperado Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13,898
    Likes Received:
    28,045
    lol I echo @Anung Un Rama 's sentiments...what year is this? There's someone defending the Iraq war as a just war in 2019?
    Again, the Iraq war was "Ill advised"? are you trolling with this wordage? You say this as if this was some small thing. I don't think it was just ill advised. I think the war was based on lies. It was bullshit. It is a crime
    Kofi Annan, the previous secretary of the UN said the Iraq War was illegal.
    The simple belief that Iraq has WMDs does not justify invading a sovereign nation. The war was not sanctioned by the UN, and you're only supposed to be able to take action against an aggressor--Iraq hadn't taken any aggressive action against "the coalition".

    The United States browbeat other nations into joining them..Bush's famous "If you're not with us, you're against us" speech not ring a bill? America got a lot of sympathy for 911 and used that to get other countries in on the Iraq invasion.
    The war won't ever be proved "illegal" in the UN because the US and UK hold veto power and won't ever bring this topic up, nor agree that it was illegal.

    You, and other conservatives have this really awful habit of making incredibly broad generalizations, and talking so generally about things that you gloss over the important details of the conversation.
    What are politics? You guys use this word as if we're talking about some sort of metaphysical concept, or our individual diet plans. There's politics like your views on taxes and policy, and then there are "politics" that effect peoples' lives on a very real and personal level--throwing out these garbage points about "identity politics" is just a dodge. If you support laws that harm or discriminate against someone because of their race, gender, or sexual orientation then that goes beyond "politics", it's personal. If your "politics" result in the killing of hundreds of thousands of people, that is beyond "politics".

    We're not talking about someone like Chris Matthews and Chris Wallace being friends, or Alec Baldwin and Clint Eastwood being friends. We're talking about being friends with bad people that have done bad things, and people that support policies that hurt other people. I have right wing friends. I wouldn't be friends with someone that was a xenophobe or thinks that the lives of the people we bomb are worthless. I can be civil with them, but we aren't hanging out.
     
    m25105 and Anung Un Rama like this.
  12. oldshadow

    oldshadow Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    28,593
    Likes Received:
    14,992
    Location:
    Virginia U.S.A.
    What?

    You mean you can be friendly with something you don’t agree political?

    No not in this age and time.
     
    Mcountry likes this.
  13. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    43,454
    Likes Received:
    74,573
    1. I don't understand the connotation issue you have with ill advised. To me, that speaks in no way to the profundity or pettiness of the error.
    2. The was nothing unjust about invading Iraq, but it was a bad idea.
    a. What Kofi Annan says matters little to me.
    b. Lol at browbeating nations into committing 45K troops.
    3. What constitutes a legal war in your view?
    4. Didn't Obama's policies contribute greatly in the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Syria. Didn't his policies result in the revival of black slavery in Libya? Yet I'd love to have a beer with the guy. He wasn't trying to do those things, but changing the world for the better is hard as hell. Out of Trump, Obama, and Bush, I'd least want to spend time with trump, yet he's responsible for far less death and suffering than the other two.
    a. There's a lot of selective outrage at play here. It exposes this chiefly as cover for political demonization.
    b. There's a lot of hypocrisy involved as well. But I can have a glass of wine with a hypocrite. Look me up next time you are in Cleveland.
     
    SRN likes this.
  14. SmilinDesperado

    SmilinDesperado Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13,898
    Likes Received:
    28,045
    Communism, Anarchism, Libertarian, Conservatism are all different "ideologies" with very different beliefs.
    The issue is not "2 people that just have a difference of opinion being friends".
    That would obviously be a stupid argument. No one is saying conservatives and liberals can't be friends.
    When your ideology involves the killing, harming, or discriminating of other groups is where the problem comes in.
     
  15. Mcountry

    Mcountry Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2019
    Messages:
    4,097
    Likes Received:
    7,262
    I absolutely adore this shit. Left eats left. Welcome to cancel culture Ellen! She should be more than familiar with it as she and her fucking show helped breed it!
     
  16. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    108,665
    Likes Received:
    44,672
    Location:
    the sticks
    George W Bush promoted killing and harming gays, eh?

    No he did not. You're proving exactly what I said with your silly and fake alarmist attitude. Stop saying baseless bullshit like this. Stop acting like everyone who disagrees with something is some monster.
     
    Bob Arctor and GrandNewb like this.
  17. regmma123

    regmma123 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,168
    Likes Received:
    2,963
    dont say 'we'
     
  18. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Messages:
    108,665
    Likes Received:
    44,672
    Location:
    the sticks
    What are you?
     
  19. Graves

    Graves ******WTF Belt****** Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    76,234
    Likes Received:
    51,700
    Location:
    California, n00b!
    always thought Degeneres was a cool dude IMO
     
    Bob Arctor likes this.
  20. SmilinDesperado

    SmilinDesperado Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13,898
    Likes Received:
    28,045
    1. I'll take your word on your meaning it has for you then. But 'ill advised' just doesn't even touch the surface of how wrong the Iraq War is, and it sounds like you're trying to downplay the seriousness and effect it has had on not just America, but more importantly, the Iraqis, IMO. You're quibbling about how many people died with @Anung Un Rama , and just dodging the point. Whether it's a million people that died, or 300,000, those deaths are on Bush. Obvioulsy people die in war, but we started the war. That's the problem.
    2. If there is nothing unjust about invading Iraq, what justified it?
    a. lol How does the secretary general of the UN words on a UN matter 'matter little to you'? Whose word matters to you then? Only the US can clear itself of wrongdoing?
    b. You are HEAVILY underestimating the big dick power US had back then. Tony Blair was Bush's little bitch. Countries were bullied into helping out with Iraq.
    3. A legal war is one that happens in defense. You can't just decide that someone is a threat to you and attack when they hadn't done anything to you. Regime changing is not legal.
    4. I"m not defending Obama, but Syria and Iraq are very different situations.
    a. There isn't anything selective about the outrage. You do this often, you see an apple and an orange and say they're both fruits, so, same difference. Completely ignoring the details. Criticizing Bush is not saying that Obama was a perfect angel that did nothing wrong. Their wrongs are different in substance and scale.
    b. Sherdog War Room meetup with alcohol..cops definitely will be called eventually.
     
    m25105 and Anung Un Rama like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.