I notice that alot of schools including mine roll from the knees. I'm interested as to what the first few parts of your game plan are when you start in this position? Everyone at my gym seems to do the same things, so I'm assuming everyone has a little pathway they usually follow to get going. Personally, I start sitting on one side of my butt, one hand on the floor and the opposite knee up. This means to me they can only pass on one side. If they put a knee up - I'll grab their ankle and the side of their head and go for the sweep. If they go to their open guard - I'll usually try to get ankle control, put them flat on their back and work some standing guard passes from there. If they stand - I'll go to a Tomahawk Sweep(hook behind one leg, other foot in the hip, wrist control with one hand and control the hooked leg with the other wrist, extend the leg in the hip and chop in the hooked leg to complete the sweep) and failing that, pull myself in, hip up, wrap my leg inside and around thier leg and go to the heel hook.
Well for one thing, you can always just go to butt-scooting from knees which sounds like where you want to be...
one of you should really just pull guard. why, when you are starting on the knees, would you stand up? i see guys all the time trying to muscle eachother over for takedowns from the knees looking for some magical knee takedown that would never happen in real life. from the knees, people should just drop their ego and work their bottom game. if the other guy goes to his back first, work your top game.
Yeah. I'd agree that someone just pulling guard is probably going to be more beneficial than struggling for position from the knees for several minutes. Having said that, it is possible to work attacks from knee in the manner JohnnyS shows here. His argument is that:
Yeah when you start off on the knees, I think there has to be some give and take with both people. I usually let the other person do whatever they want, whether it be pull guard or begin to work open guard. Most people want to go to their back. I'm usually not selfish and just give it to them, it will make my top game stronger anyways.
I use the TS method or: 1) Get a hand in the collar 2) A grip elsewhere 3) Find a hook Whether I end up on my back or on top I am usually in a decent position.
I agree. Although, I think my top control game is a lot better and I could "win easier" if I managed to bull the guy over from my knees. It does nothing for me or him. If they want to stand and wrestle for the takedown. I am game. I wish there was more of that (although the mat we use suck for takedowns). I am not convinced very many guys in my gym know how to work from a failed shot. My personally, I start on my ass in a sitting guard. Lately, I have been pulling half guard because that has been my focus. Next up is butterfly guard, so I will sit up and try and get my butterfly hooks in. Basically, I just do what every I am trying to work on, while he tries to win however he can. It is not for everyone but I have made some amazing gains in my half guard in the last month using this strategy.
That's what I do. Though generally at the MMA club we start groundwork with one person in the other's guard, and at the judo club we start groundwork with one person doing an unresisted throw - the action starts as soon as uke (the person being thrown) hits the ground. They're much more realistic beginnings - I actually like the free throw start better, and have started doing it in the MMA club ... have my opponent do whatever takedown they like. You get to be pretty good at covering up after awhile. Knee to knee wrestling just never really happens, so why waste time getting good at it?
IMO having an epic back and forth wrestling battle from knees is just silly because it isn't realistic. I usually pull guard or let the other person pull guard on me.
If you guys think you can't work on hand fighting and balance, arm drags, snap downs and the rest from your knees, you guys are seriously missing out on an important aspect of training. Knees are safer and waste less energy, but they allow you to work on many of the technical aspects of standup grappling. Looks like a lot of posters here are simply sitting to their butts every single time, instead of using the starting position to sometimes work on the other aspects of their grappling game.
I dunno, I try to envision it like a scramble and think about what I'd do from there, but I can see your point.
Okay, I'm a wrestler/judoka so I'm prejudiced, but I disagree. The technical aspects of standup deal a lot with posture and leg movement/balance ... there's a pretty good chance of developing bad habits if you're trying to learn it from the knees. If it was an efficient way to do it every wrestling and judo club would be doing it, but I don't think I've ever seen a wrestling or judo club practicing standup techniques from the knees. If you're trying to develop standup skills, why not just stand up?
Hand fighting can definitely be practiced from the knees. I actually implemented a hand-fighting drill from the knees when I was coaching high school wrestling. It forces the athlete to focus on the hand fighting, grips, drags, shucks etc. instead of just relying on quickness of penetration/level change and explosiveness. It was a specific technique oriented drill that I used when I wanted to focus on the basics of hand fighting rather than the total package. It was a good way to keep the kids from going too 'live' during hand fighting drills. It is admittedly a small drill that needs to be complemented by more extensive standup grappling, but it definitely has its uses.
Its an interesting approach, I've never seen it. I'll try it out, though my prejudice is that it'll lose a lot of the balance/posture details that are important. Though I understand what you mean about keeping high school students from going 'live', that's always a major headache.
It's just a way to isolate certain techniques for drilling. And although unusual, there is still some takedown defense and scramble balance that can be worked from you knees as well. Finally, snap downs, the turtle position, knee picks off of sprawls, and a few other things useful in all around standup grappling can get some work from the knees. It's definitely not a substitute for standup grappling work, but it isn't worthless. It also reduces injury, keeps the less fit from gassing, and allows bjj players to get to the groundwork more quickly. I see why it has a place, but it should never replace standup drilling and occasional live rolls/randori/wrestling.
I really don't see the point of from the knees. To me, wrestling from the knees is pointless. You might as well just start from bottom or top or any position you agree to.
nice, i'm gonna try these out tonight and see how effective they are. I read the bulshido post also and johnnyS talks about some counters....interesting
I guess as a wrestler and judoka, I am not to worried about it. That said you can grip fight or arm drag from your butt too. Personally, I think you should start from standing at least some of the time. A lot of guys are clue less and when they bull rush for a double they are going to get stuffed if they face a wrestler or go for a small flight if they face a judo player. My personal progression goes like this: Pull what ever guard I am working one, work sweep, work guard pass, if in side control attempt mount, secure position, submit. That is an outline, obviously I will have to work with what my partner give me but that is a pretty general progression for me. When you add the variables of a partner the oly thing I am missing are takedowns.
