Freestyle wrestling is more effective than folkstyle in mma

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Whether GSP trained freestyle or folk, his techniques utilized in mma would have been the same, he utilized common denominator techniques. If that doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to say. I'm not asking you to agree, but you seem to lack the ability to see my point at all.

No I get what you just wrote and it is not wrong, but it's different from your other statements.So your point changes at every post and overall this debate and useless.

 

[mjfan23]

GSP wrestled with the Canadian Olympic Freestyle Wrestling team. With athletes like Zimmerman and such. If we go by that logic he hasn't fot a karate background too because he never competed in kyokushin. Just trained it. Like wrestling. And show us where he trained samba please.



Yeah, maybe read what i wrote in the OP before commenting :

Wrestled with the Olympic team? Ok

I shook hands with Karlein once: do you consider that me working on my grip and grabs with the wrestling goat? GSP trained with them just like many mma artists do. That doesn’t make him a freestyle wrestler by background. He spent more time at Faris and Jackson’s training with MT, bjj and folk style professionals. He doesn’t have a free style wrestling dominant back ground!! He is MMAs best wrestler but he learned that after entering mma not a skill he brought into mma as his base.

GSP also trained with Freddie roach and champion boxers do we consider him a boxing a base now?

you are taking specific moments in time to prove a universal fact. If I was do the same I would say you are wrong! all three got owned by non freestyle bases in tiabu, Jones and Hendricks.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

Wrestled with the Olympic team? Ok

I shook hands with Karlein once: do you consider that me working on my grip and grabs with the wrestling goat? GSP trained with them just like many mma artists do. That doesn’t make him a freestyle wrestler by background. He spent more time at Faris and Jackson’s training with MT, bjj and folk style professionals. He doesn’t have a free style wrestling dominant back ground!! He is MMAs best wrestler but he learned that after entering mma not a skill he brought into mma as his base.

GSP also trained with Freddie roach and champion boxers do we consider him a boxing a base now?

you are taking specific moments in time to prove a universal fact. If I was do the same I would say you are wrong! all three got owned by non freestyle bases in tiabu, Jones and Hendricks.

GSP trained for the majority of his life in Canada. He didn't train much at Jackson's in reality, he went there for the game planning. Diego Sanchez supported Hendricks when they fought and when asked why he'd side against a team mate he replied "what team mate ? GSP has spent one month here in the last 5 years".

So no he didn't wrestle primarily with folkstyle guys, but with freestyle wrestlers in Canada. He also picked wrestling when he was 16, and in Canada where he grew up there is almost no folkstyle.

And of course GSP is a complete mixed.martial artist. I'm not saying that his base is wrestling I'm saying that his wrestling is freestyle based not folkstyle.

And the training with roach is something he did much latter in his career, you can't compare it to something he trained since his teenage days

 

[rjmbrd]

This is such a silly concept in modern MMA.

Jon Jones was a JuCo folkstyle guy who out wrestled Cormier who is a freestyle world medalists that made two Olympic teams.

The only thing that matters is how well you can adapt your knowledge to MMA.

The best grapplers are multi-discipline and study a broad spectrum of grappling arts that work best with their game.

 

[Luvhawky]

No. A lot of techniques of freestyle arsenal are banned in folkstyle. All the high amplitude throws for example.

I’ve acknowledged this in my previous posts. My point has centered around GSP mostly if not only utilizing techniques allowed by both rule sets.

 

[Luvhawky]

No I get what you just wrote and it is not wrong, but it's different from your other statements.So your point changes at every post and overall this debate and useless.

I had to keep rephrasing to get my point across maybe it wasn’t clear before but my intent was to stay on the same point though language may have changed. Anyways have a good one.

 

[mjfan23]

GSP trained for the majority of his life in Canada. He didn't train much at Jackson's in reality, he went there for the game planning. Diego Sanchez supported Hendricks when they fought and when asked why he'd side against a team mate he replied "what team mate ? GSP has spent one month here in the last 5 years".

So no he didn't wrestle primarily with folkstyle guys, but with freestyle wrestlers in Canada. He also picked wrestling when he was 16, and in Canada where he grew up there is almost no folkstyle.

And of course GSP is a complete mixed.martial artist. I'm not saying that his base is wrestling I'm saying that his wrestling is freestyle based not folkstyle.

And the training with roach is something he did much latter in his career, you can't compare it to something he trained since his teenage days

Cool story bro. Nice repackaging of facts. But in GSPs opinion: Karate and Bruce Lee > freestyle wrestling alone

 

[Deleted member 512089]

Cool story bro. Nice repackaging of facts. But in GSPs opinion: Karate and Bruce Lee > freestyle wrestling alone

The argument was never if wrestling is a better base than striking. The discussion is rather which one between freestyle or folkstyle is better suited for mma. And our sub discussion was wether GSP wrestled freestyle or folk.

Also i honestly don't see how my previous message is a repackaging of facts. What fact did I get wrong? Feel free to enlighten me.

 

[Grappler111]

The argument was never of wrestling is a better base than striking. The discussion is rather which one between freestyle or folkstyle is better suited for mma. And our sub discussion was wether GSP wrestled freestyle or folk.

Also i honestly don't see how my previous message is a repackaging of facts. What fact did I get wrong? Feel free to enlighten me.

There are 30 years of mma with stats that demonstrate wrestling > striking. The GSP opinion is irrelevant and he is not the best grappler in mma history.

 

[Grappler111]

Portajohn's style was taking roids up his ass. The moment he had to fight clean, he struggled severely trying to wrestle with a one-legged MW washout and a technology support specialist. Without roids Portajohn's wrestling is dogshit.

Jones had roids, height, years (Cormier was a master athlete in wrestling) , weight cut and reach advantage over Cormier. Jones has also a strong Greco roman wrestling background. Hendo was a folkstyle wrestler Greco olympian two time world cup silver medalist but was destroyed by Cormier with freestyle wrestling techniques.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Wrestled with the Olympic team? Ok

I shook hands with Karlein once: do you consider that me working on my grip and grabs with the wrestling goat? GSP trained with them just like many mma artists do. That doesn’t make him a freestyle wrestler by background. He spent more time at Faris and Jackson’s training with MT, bjj and folk style professionals. He doesn’t have a free style wrestling dominant back ground!! He is MMAs best wrestler but he learned that after entering mma not a skill he brought into mma as his base.

GSP also trained with Freddie roach and champion boxers do we consider him a boxing a base now?

you are taking specific moments in time to prove a universal fact. If I was do the same I would say you are wrong! all three got owned by non freestyle bases in tiabu, Jones and Hendricks.

You are wrong. YOu need to understand something: GSP grew up in Québec, where all wrestling almost does not exist. Folkstyle does not exist at all, over there. So if you want to train wrestling, which is extremely niche, you need to find one of the couple wrestling clubs, put on the singlet, and go train with people who train olympic wrestling and DGAF about MMA.

 

[SBC]

I’d say it has less to do with it being an international sport and more about folk style lacking any upper body technique. It is rare to see a folk style wrestler who looks comfortable in bodylock positions. Most of the early wrestlers who were successful in MMA were Greco guys. Sure, they had the typical American upbringing of folk style but were on the Olympic ladder for Greco. It may not seem like much given the fact that Greco guys in the US are for the most part wash-outs from freestyle, but as in the case with GSP and many Dagestanis have shown, you don’t need to be the best wrestler in your region to have success.

When people gush about what a great wrestler the Dagestan is are, I remain reserved. They aren’t great by Dagestani standards, and even looking at their technique it is basic stuff. It is just that folk style doesn’t emphasize upper body, like at all. When you see Khabib and crew dominating look at where they are going to. They don’t just continuously dive at legs. They will climb up into upper body if a single fails and completely rag doll their opponent.

Flash back to early American wrestlers...Dan Henderson, Sonnen, Couture, Lindland. All of them collegiate wrestlers who transferred into Greco guys. They had both the leg attacks and the upper body. Hell, one of Lindland’s crowning achievements was “rope gate” where he fought Fedor and many thought Fedor grabbing the ropes prevented Lindland from getting the win. Lindland...the Olympic greco silver medalist. But those days are gone and it is almost exclusively folk style, and low level at that. I could go on and on.

I also think arrogance has a lot to do with it. Sorry, but many American wrestlers do have this superiority complex when it comes to wrestling. Things are changing as more young wrestlers actually prefer the international styles, but I have come across young wrestlers who bang on about how “we kick those Russians ass in wrestling” to which I am baffled because Russians dominate the sport.

Folk style transplants also behave in the same annoying way that BJJi guys used to, and don’t receive nearly as much scorn. They swear all you need is wrestling. They swear it is the most dominate martial art for MMA. It is to the point that a lot of them seem to not put in nearly as much time into oh, I don’t know, 2 THIRDS OF THE SPORT. Their striking suffersand they don’t seem to give a damn about jiu jitsu. Look at Khabib and crew. They have sloppy yet effective technique and are well rounded grapplers with great understanding of position and slick transitions to submissions like Makhachev. They’ve fully embraced MMA. Typically folkstylers don’t and often get a rude awakening. Just as jiu jitsu guys in the past would flop everywhere because BJJ was the best, folkstylers dive at legs with no set-up repeatedly even if they are failing miserably and get outclassed in the game of MMA. Their mentality needs to change and they need to fully commit to MMA.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I’d say it has less to do with it being an international sport and more about folk style lacking any upper body technique. It is rare to see a folk style wrestler who looks comfortable in bodylock positions. Most of the early wrestlers who were successful in MMA were Greco guys. Sure, they had the typical American upbringing of folk style but were on the Olympic ladder for Greco. It may not seem like much given the fact that Greco guys in the US are for the most part wash-outs from freestyle, but as in the case with GSP and many Dagestanis have shown, you don’t need to be the best wrestler in your region to have success.

When people gush about what a great wrestler the Dagestan is are, I remain reserved. They aren’t great by Dagestani standards, and even looking at their technique it is basic stuff. It is just that folk style doesn’t emphasize upper body, like at all. When you see Khabib and crew dominating look at where they are going to. They don’t just continuously dive at legs. They will climb up into upper body if a single fails and completely rag doll their opponent.

Flash back to early American wrestlers...Dan Henderson, Sonnen, Couture, Lindland. All of them collegiate wrestlers who transferred into Greco guys. They had both the leg attacks and the upper body. Hell, one of Lindland’s crowning achievements was “rope gate” where he fought Fedor and many thought Fedor grabbing the ropes prevented Lindland from getting the win. Lindland...the Olympic greco silver medalist. But those days are gone and it is almost exclusively folk style, and low level at that. I could go on and on.

I also think arrogance has a lot to do with it. Sorry, but many American wrestlers do have this superiority complex when it comes to wrestling. Things are changing as more young wrestlers actually prefer the international styles, but I have come across young wrestlers who bang on about how “we kick those Russians ass in wrestling” to which I am baffled because Russians dominate the sport.

Folk style transplants also behave in the same annoying way that BJJi guys used to, and don’t receive nearly as much scorn. They swear all you need is wrestling. They swear it is the most dominate martial art for MMA. It is to the point that a lot of them seem to not put in nearly as much time into oh, I don’t know, 2 THIRDS OF THE SPORT. Their striking suffersand they don’t seem to give a damn about jiu jitsu. Look at Khabib and crew. They have sloppy yet effective technique and are well rounded grapplers with great understanding of position and slick transitions to submissions like Makhachev. They’ve fully embraced MMA. Typically folkstylers don’t and often get a rude awakening. Just as jiu jitsu guys in the past would flop everywhere because BJJ was the best, folkstylers dive at legs with no set-up repeatedly even if they are failing miserably and get outclassed in the game of MMA. Their mentality needs to change and they need to fully commit to MMA.

Personally I don't know much about wrestling but what strikes me the most when I compare Caucasian wrestlers and American wrestlers in MMA is how more versatile the Caucasians are on average, and how as you mention they emphasise upper body work much more than americans.

 

[mjfan23]

The argument was never if wrestling is a better base than striking. The discussion is rather which one between freestyle or folkstyle is better suited for mma. And our sub discussion was wether GSP wrestled freestyle or folk.

Also i honestly don't see how my previous message is a repackaging of facts. What fact did I get wrong? Feel free to enlighten me.

I think you are engaged in so many fronts you don’t even know what’s going on anymore.

Recap:

you said freestyle is the best.

I said that’s great but the examples you are using Khabib (sambo) and GSP (karate) are not great examples. That should have been the end of it.

But You came back saying no they are and infact GSP trains with Olympic team of freestyle wrestling lol don’t almost all fighters train with art specific amateur and professionals?

I said that’s cool he also trained with Jackson’s, Faris and Freddie roach. You came back saying oh but Deigo (who is clinically not sane btw) said so and so. I could have listed renzo, his time in New York or Bruno Fernandes JJ training to say but GSPs base is JJ but it was pointless cause you were stuck on trying to take point in time single events and try to educate me on GSP (I witnessed his entire career btw).

you also stated prove karate and ‘samba’ were the base and I gave you a video of GSP himself stating he credits his wrestling to karate and Bruce Lee not freestyle just to show you how stupid focusing on single point in time facts is.

yet that flew over your head.

Yes this was never about what GSPs base is, but you repeatedly made it into that after I intially told you it’s not his base.

The debate about which style is better in mma is a lengthy one and I would personally side with freestyle too like you suggested. But at the same time if I want to push an agenda like you tried I could easily have said that’s all cool but the jon Jones out wrestled DC !

 

[mjfan23]

You are wrong. YOu need to understand something: GSP grew up in Québec, where all wrestling almost does not exist. Folkstyle does not exist at all, over there. So if you want to train wrestling, which is extremely niche, you need to find one of the couple wrestling clubs, put on the singlet, and go train with people who train olympic wrestling and DGAF about MMA.

Thanks for the info on Quebec but that’s just another irrelevant piece of information good sir.

please quantify the time he spent training wrestling vs the time he spent training BJJ, karate, boxing, MT, etc and then get back to me thank you.

It’s mma everyone trains with sport or art specific talent, what’s new?

Let me ask you something: did GSP try out for the Canadian national team Olympics ever? Other mma fighter have for example kid Yamamoto did it for Japan.

I have followed GSPs entire career and I can tell you he was a mixed material artist not a freestyle wrestler and if anything he was a self proclaimed (repeatedly) representative of the karate base.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

I think you are engaged in so many fronts you don’t even know what’s going on anymore.

Recap:

you said freestyle is the best.

I said that’s great but the examples you are using Khabib (sambo) and GSP (karate) are not great examples. That should have been the end of it.

But You came back saying no they are and infact GSP trains with Olympic team of freestyle wrestling lol don’t almost all fighters train with art specific amateur and professionals?

I said that’s cool he also trained with Jackson’s, Faris and Freddie roach. You came back saying oh but Deigo (who is clinically not sane btw) said so and so. I could have listed renzo, his time in New York or Bruno Fernandes JJ training to say but GSPs base is JJ but it was pointless cause you were stuck on trying to take point in time single events and try to educate me on GSP (I witnessed his entire career btw).

you also stated prove karate and ‘samba’ were the base and I gave you a video of GSP himself stating he credits his wrestling to karate and Bruce Lee not freestyle just to show you how stupid focusing on single point in time facts is.

yet that flew over your head.

Yes this was never about what GSPs base is, but you repeatedly made it into that after I intially told you it’s not his base.

The debate about which style is better in mma is a lengthy one and I would personally side with freestyle too like you suggested. But at the same time if I want to push an agenda like you tried I could easily have said that’s all cool but the jon Jones out wrestled DC !

There might be a misunderstanding between us. I am not trying to be right at all costs I assure you, not my style. But i do like to have lengthy discussion on subjects I like and explain why I believe what I believe. Hence my numerous responses.

Maybe the misunderstanding is the follow : i never said that freestyle wrestling was GSP's mma base, obviously he has numerous ones and was a truly complete mixed martial artist, i only said that it was his wrestling base. His wrestling base that he developed his mma wrestling game on was freestyle and not folkstyle. I think you'd agree with that ?

 

[SBC]

Personally I don't know much about wrestling but what strikes me the most when I compare Caucasian wrestlers and American wrestlers in MMA is how more versatile the Caucasians are on average, and how as you mention they emphasise upper body work much more than americans.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. In Russia, specifically Dagestan, the overwhelming majority of young males learn at least some wrestling. It is pretty much a wrestling first culture. If you excel at wrestling, then you take priority, and there are special schools for you. Those who aren’t as good will generally move on to a different combat sport, like Judo/sambo. So you take a guy who has basic wrestling fundamentals, who is probably disappointed he didn’t make the cut in wrestling and give him a new grappling art to excel at. When compared to US wrestling, MMA fighters have throws, upper body, footweeps and submissions...all stemming from the freestyle/Judo/sambo hybrid. It makes a well rounded grapple to say the least. This is why Caucasian fighters are able to “chain wrestle” better than Americans. They simply have more moves to string together.

In Folkstyle wrestling they don’t emphasize throws or foot sweeps, and very few people are good at upper body positioning. It is far less well rounded. Not to say that we can’t produce good wrestlers, we can, but they most likely stick with wrestling. Americans tend to emphasize physicality. Having good cardio being strong that type of thing. I do like this, and it plays to our advantage internationally, but we should focus on developing good technique to add to our punishing physicality and stamina.

 

[MartinGibson86]

A proof about how all of GSP's techniques are folkstyle ? Because if not proof that's just what you want to believe. GSP never trained folkstyle he trained olympic style wrestling since he was 16.

Cormier's famous high crotch single exists both in folkstyle and freestyle. He probably mixes the two but he spent the latter part of his life and closest to his mma career doing freestyle. But he probably mixes it up so i'd say you're right here.

And Khabib uses many freestyle techniques. Remember that pseudo ankle pick he did against Iaquinta ? He said in an interview with Ariel that it was a freestyle technique. And he said he enjoys freestyle more.

GSPs bread and butter was his blast double lol.


He wasn't doing gut-wrenches

 

[MartinGibson86]

Ali Isaev defeated 2 combat sambo world champions but he is an international level freestyle wrestlers. A lhw former greco world champion Aliakbari defeated multi time combat sambo world champion Moldavsky. Chimaev is another fighter with freestyle background at national level but defeated another combat sambo world champion. Freestyle is far better than folkstyle in stand up grappling, takedowns, throws and transition on the ground. Folkstyle is better on ground control, ok, but if you want see Askren vs Fundora...

Now UWW has a wrestling style called Grappling with an interesting stand up point system and submissions. An hibrid style between Freestyle wrestling and submission arts.

What about Askren-Fundora lol?

How bout Askren pinning the Hungarian in the first round?

Folkstyle has proven to be WAY better than freestyle.

 

[Deleted member 512089]

GSPs bread and butter was his blast double lol.


He wasn't doing gut-wrenches

It's not like it's a forbidden technique in freestyle.

(Not totally on subject : And anyway both in freestyle and folkstyle you don't see a lot of these. You see more of the traditional double leg with the knee on the mat to lower the center of gravity. Blast double is more suited to mma because of the more upright posture)