Frank Bruno v Michael Moorer

How many times did Galota knock him down? Bowe had a better chin than Moorer, but he was a long shot from having a great chin...
also, he ducked Lewis for a reason.. because that chin failed him in the ammies


Bowe is over-rated imo... He had Holyfield's number in the first fight (2nd fight was more telling imo and third fight there was clearly an issue with Holyfield's health/stamina), but his style was just impratical against real hitters... Mercer would have beat the shit out of him for example.. there was nothing graceful or particularly skillful about Bowe.. he was just a big guy with good power and speed that spent most of his time fighting on the inside and negating the size advantage he usually possessed. But he was not as great as he's made out to be.. he had a lot of flaws.. slow feet, chin, stamina, discipline to adhere to a plan.. all these things could have put him on even terms with much lesser fighters..including Michael Moorer...


One thing that is telling about Bowe is that there is really no beautiful crystal clear moment where you are like "holy fuck that guy is good!" .... Tyson has those moments.. Lewis has those moments.. Holyfield has those moments.. Bowe was a big strong fast grinder that often looked more like a street fighter than a boxer....I think he is so revered, not because of how skilled he was... but because he was in one of the greatest triologies ever..

just my opinion though
 
I'm going to agree with Seano here. For all the hate Bowe gets (some of it deserved), I don't see Moorer beating him. Moorer was an LHW who got lucky against Evander. Bowe's size and infighting skill alone would be enough to beat Moorer. Maybe moorer was a little bit tighter on the inside, and probably faster and while he he had pretty good defense, I don't see him being able to hold off a guy as big as Bowe and his power didn't translate to HW well enough to take out a guy like Bowe, especially with his chin. My guess is that Moorer might win a few of the early rounds, but it becomes a war of attrition and Bowe (who, in his prime, was one of the best HW's we'll ever see in terms of skill), wears him down, landing bigger, heavier shots and TKO/KOing him late. Might actually look a little like the recent Gamboa/Crawford fight, but with less of the finesse and hand speed Gamboa had, and more overwhelming mauling on Bowe's part.
 
I'm also saying Bowe would win against Moorer.. Im just adding that Moorer had the one punch ability to knock Bowe cold..especially considering Bowe fought on the inside and left himself open to hooks as he spammed uppercuts...

What particular skill did Bowe display that was worth holding him in such high regard?

A great uppercut? Sure.. but it required him to make himself vulnerable, and was more often than not.. slow .. how it landed? Ill never know... His jab was decent.. but not on a Holmes or even a Mercer level...
I guess when I think skill.. I think a progression of techniques used to acheive an a specific effect... not clobbering your smaller opponents while putting yourself at risk...There's a big difference between what Tyson did and what Bowe did is what Im getting at.. Tyson was skilled..and gifted.. Bowe was really just gifted imo..
 
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Cracky said:
How many times did Galota knock him down? Bowe had a better chin than Moorer, but he was a long shot from having a great chin...
also, he ducked Lewis for a reason.. because that chin failed him in the ammies


Bowe is over-rated imo... He had Holyfield's number in the first fight (2nd fight was more telling imo and third fight there was clearly an issue with Holyfield's health/stamina), but his style was just impratical against real hitters... Mercer would have beat the shit out of him for example.. there was nothing graceful or particularly skillful about Bowe.. he was just a big guy with good power and speed that spent most of his time fighting on the inside and negating the size advantage he usually possessed. But he was not as great as he's made out to be.. he had a lot of flaws.. slow feet, chin, stamina, discipline to adhere to a plan.. all these things could have put him on even terms with much lesser fighters..including Michael Moorer...


One thing that is telling about Bowe is that there is really no beautiful crystal clear moment where you are like "holy fuck that guy is good!" .... Tyson has those moments.. Lewis has those moments.. Holyfield has those moments.. Bowe was a big strong fast grinder that often looked more like a street fighter than a boxer....I think he is so revered, not because of how skilled he was... but because he was in one of the greatest triologies ever..

just my opinion though
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my opinion on Bowe is not nearly as harsh and I do think he had some special qualities given his size. Sometimes, with past fighters, I wonder if people actually have seen the fights or are just going off of one or two fights and a lot of rumours. I remember Gil Clancy calling Bowe the best technical big man he'd ever seen, I think Bowe was a fine technical fighter in the worst division for technique in boxing. The reason Futch taught him how to fight so well inside was because he (and everyone else) assumed it would be Tyson, not Holyfield that he would be fighting for the title. However, on the night of the Holyfield fight, he put on an inspired performance that he would never repeat, find me another man that big who could match and exceed Holyfields punch output and stamina. Bowe had a great, strictly thrown, textbook left jab, good power in that right and a variety of other punches to fall back on. After that win, he lost his desire, started coming in 10,20 pounds heavier and not being as prepared. Still, for years, I thought he was undeservedly being touted as "the real best heavyweight in the world" over everyone else and even the post prison Tyson. But all he did after the second Holyfield fight was to win a rematch and look terrible in fights with guys like Herbie Hide, Buster Mathis Jr.,larry Donald and then the Golota fights which ruined him permanently. He practically did nothing in many of those fights and showed such a lack of commitment that the normally reserved Futch quit on him and bad talked him afterwards. A letdown yes, a guy who would lose to Mercer or Moorer? Only one of those fucked up nights he had but not on the night of the Holyfield fights.
 
I watched just about every single Bowe fight... Im not just basing it off of highlights.. he was limited..

and Mercer on his best night.. beat Lewis imo.. why wouldn't he do the same to Bowe..who was a lesser fighter?

Bowe did throw a lot of punches for a big guy though..Ill give him that.
 
Bowe wasn't limited. Come on. The guy was good outside, had a great jab, was a killer inside for such a big guy, had some counter punching skills....

Bowe wasn't limited.

Whats all this talk about Mercer? Bowe didn't lose at all except to arguably the best version of Holyfield. We were comparing him to Moorer, now Lewis.
 
Seano said:
Bowe wasn't limited. Come on. The guy was good outside, had a great jab, was a killer inside for such a big guy, had some counter punching skills....

Bowe wasn't limited.

Whats all this talk about Mercer? Bowe didn't lose at all except to arguably the best version of Holyfield. We were comparing him to Moorer, now Lewis.
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and he pretty much got outskilled by Golota twice.. there is that too...

Mercer beat Lewis imo.. I think he beats the breaks off of Bowe....
 
Cracky said:
I watched just about every single Bowe fight... Im not just basing it off of highlights.. he was limited..

and Mercer on his best night.. beat Lewis imo.. why wouldn't he do the same to Bowe..who was a lesser fighter?

Bowe did throw a lot of punches for a big guy though..Ill give him that.
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ya I should have clarified, I didn't mean you, I meant generally when guys talk about fighters here, seems like often times, with the new posters, they really haven't seen much footage. Mercer? Big right hand, outside of that, never was impressed with him and the Lewis fight, remember, Lewis was almost as unimpressive as Bowe was before he won the title. Lost to McCall, had serious battles with mercer, Bruno, even Shannon Briggs. mercer was old when he turned pro, I don't remember much good about him, lost to an ancient Holmes, was getting outboxed by Tommy Morrison until the kayo and didn't win many rounds against a rusty, supposedly shopworn Holyfield. I wasn't ever impressed but he could hit. Bowe had a good chin though, he took life altering beatings without going down. I thought and still think that the Golota fights are some of the most brutal heavyweight fights I've ever seen and Bowe hung in their when he had nothing to fight with, he had courage.
 
mozfonky said:
ya I should have clarified, I didn't mean you, I meant generally when guys talk about fighters here, seems like often times, with the new posters, they really haven't seen much footage. Mercer? Big right hand, outside of that, never was impressed with him and the Lewis fight, remember, Lewis was almost as unimpressive as Bowe was before he won the title. Lost to McCall, had serious battles with mercer, Bruno, even Shannon Briggs. mercer was old when he turned pro, I don't remember much good about him, lost to an ancient Holmes, was getting outboxed by Tommy Morrison until the kayo and didn't win many rounds against a rusty, supposedly shopworn Holyfield. I wasn't ever impressed but he could hit. Bowe had a good chin though, he took life altering beatings without going down. I thought and still think that the Golota fights are some of the most brutal heavyweight fights I've ever seen and Bowe hung in their when he had nothing to fight with, he had courage.
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Mercer had one of the best jabs going.. it was Listonesque... and his CHin was really top notch.. that is why he would beat Bowe.. because Bowe needed to be able to hurt his opponent.. he didnt have the technique to win if they didn't wilt...and Mercer wouldn't have blinked
 
Cracky said:
How many times did Galota knock him down? Bowe had a better chin than Moorer, but he was a long shot from having a great chin...
also, he ducked Lewis for a reason.. because that chin failed him in the ammies


Bowe is over-rated imo... He had Holyfield's number in the first fight (2nd fight was more telling imo and third fight there was clearly an issue with Holyfield's health/stamina), but his style was just impratical against real hitters... Mercer would have beat the shit out of him for example.. there was nothing graceful or particularly skillful about Bowe.. he was just a big guy with good power and speed that spent most of his time fighting on the inside and negating the size advantage he usually possessed. But he was not as great as he's made out to be.. he had a lot of flaws.. slow feet, chin, stamina, discipline to adhere to a plan.. all these things could have put him on even terms with much lesser fighters..including Michael Moorer...


One thing that is telling about Bowe is that there is really no beautiful crystal clear moment where you are like "holy fuck that guy is good!" .... Tyson has those moments.. Lewis has those moments.. Holyfield has those moments.. Bowe was a big strong fast grinder that often looked more like a street fighter than a boxer....I think he is so revered, not because of how skilled he was... but because he was in one of the greatest triologies ever..

just my opinion though
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Bowe had a great jab he just didn't fight strategically and long like someone like Wlad but when you stood at the right distance he had a great jab Foreman even called it one of the best jabs at HW in whatever years.
His chin was great hwo was his chin bad and his stamina? it was Holyfield who faded not him when he was actually in shape and motivated then his stamina was far from an issue.
Bowe was a better infighter than Moorer and Moorer would get lazy and stand at range for Bowe to land his jab and at one point Bowe would hurt Moorer and when he does he finishes him.
Footspeed won't matter Moorer didn't use a lot of movement he has always fought right infront of the other guy.
 
PivotPunch said:
Bowe had a great jab he just didn't fight strategically and long like someone like Wlad but when you stood at the right distance he had a great jab Foreman even called it one of the best jabs at HW in whatever years.
His chin was great hwo was his chin bad and his stamina? it was Holyfield who faded not him when he was actually in shape and motivated then his stamina was far from an issue.
Bowe was a better infighter than Moorer and Moorer would get lazy and stand at range for Bowe to land his jab and at one point Bowe would hurt Moorer and when he does he finishes him.
Footspeed won't matter Moorer didn't use a lot of movement he has always fought right infront of the other guy.
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Foreman said a lot of dumb shit about a lot of fighters...Bowe had a good jab.. Golota jabbed the shit out of him and showed us the difference between good and great in real time..

Moorer did use movement.. he stepped around his opponent and attacked from angles in his prime.. Im not saying Moorer is better than Bowe.. Im just saying Moorer would have a shot because the counter to a guy spamming uppercuts is a great lead hook.. and Moorer had an exceptional hook
 
Cracky said:
Foreman said a lot of dumb shit about a lot of fighters...Bowe had a good jab.. Golota jabbed the shit out of him and showed us the difference between good and great in real time..

Moorer did use movement.. he stepped around his opponent and attacked from angles in his prime.. Im not saying Moorer is better than Bowe.. Im just saying Moorer would have a shot because the counter to a guy spamming uppercuts is a great lead hook.. and Moorer had an exceptional hook
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He tried it mroe when he worked with Atlas and Atlas tried to get him do the peekaboo but he wasn't comfrtable doing it over a whole fight he kinda looked like Povetkin who picked up a few thigns from Atlas but only uses them in spots.
You could see Moorer's ko against Foreman coming a few rounds ebfore it did everyone acts like it was simply a lucky punch but Moorer stood infront of fucking Foreman and moved less and less with each round and got hit more and more with each round and that was ancient Foreman (who tbf adjusted in that fight).
Moorer moved sometimes because his trainers wanted him not because he was natural at it he was quite stationary for an undersized southpaw with chin issues.
 
PivotPunch said:
He tried it mroe when he worked with Atlas and Atlas tried to get him do the peekaboo but he wasn't comfrtable doing it over a whole fight he kinda looked like Povetkin who picked up a few thigns from Atlas but only uses them in spots.
You could see Moorer's ko against Foreman coming a few rounds ebfore it did everyone acts like it was simply a lucky punch but Moorer stood infront of fucking Foreman and moved less and less with each round and got hit more and more with each round and that was ancient Foreman (who tbf adjusted in that fight).
Moorer moved sometimes because his trainers wanted him not because he was natural at it he was quite stationary for an undersized southpaw with chin issues.
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Moorer got careless against Foreman because he wasn't being challenged and didn't feel threatened.. I don't think that's the best example..Moorer was better than that fight made him look.. well..thats not true.. first 6-7 rounds, his footwork was decent.. he was moving around Foreman and Foreman was having issues putting gloves on him..he just got careless.. and you don't do that against somebody that can hit like FOreman... I heard Foreman actually split his mouthpiece into two pieces with that right
 
Cracky said:
Foreman said a lot of dumb shit about a lot of fighters...Bowe had a good jab.. Golota jabbed the shit out of him and showed us the difference between good and great in real time..

Moorer did use movement.. he stepped around his opponent and attacked from angles in his prime.. Im not saying Moorer is better than Bowe.. Im just saying Moorer would have a shot because the counter to a guy spamming uppercuts is a great lead hook.. and Moorer had an exceptional hook
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I don't think the golota fight is a good fight to look at, either one, bowe was slipping badly by then, before anyone even was aware of it. All the lackadaisical training caught up to him overnight, the holyfield wars and whatever other punishment he may have taken just left him a shell at 29, it happens. Golota showed some real potential in that fight, too bad he was such a headcase. Moorer would have had a shot with this Bowe, yes.
 
Cracky said:
Moorer got careless against Foreman because he wasn't being challenged and didn't feel threatened.. I don't think that's the best example..Moorer was better than that fight made him look.. well..thats not true.. first 6-7 rounds, his footwork was decent.. he was moving around Foreman and Foreman was having issues putting gloves on him..he just got careless.. and you don't do that against somebody that can hit like FOreman... I heard Foreman actually split his mouthpiece into two pieces with that right
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who could blame him really, he was cracking foreman at will and foreman's punches weren't really having an effect before that. Foreman says he lulled him, Moorer says he got lucky. Moorer had some good skills for sure, but you know what? Heavyweights have always been the most inconsistent of all the weight divisions, guys who look like world beaters for one night never repeat their performance, you won't find the other divisions full of these kinds of inconsistent fighters.
 
Agree with what mozfonky said. The Bowe who fought Golota was clearly not the best version of Bowe.

Bowe got lazy and went insane, he wasn't the same guy he was when he first stepped into the ring with Holyfield.
 
Bowe used his average jab to get himself inside where he was good for someone as fat as he was

he had great stamina and threw a lot of punches for a big guy but never really had any sort of power that would end a fight in one shot or really disable a guy

i think he beats Moorer but gets caught and hurt in the process, Moorer just couldnt take a shot in the slightest and Bowe had enough power to hurt him enough to put him away

a had to laugh about someone quoting something Foreman said, he said that Lewis was the best HW of all time many times and is full of promotional bullshit

as for the "the Bowe who beat Holy in the first fight would have given anyone a tough fight......"

nah, i dont think so, he was fighting a much much smaller guy and while it was an entertaining fight, he was getting hit with shots that the bigger hitters of the division would have ended his night
 
holyfield said Bowe had a good fast jab that he had trouble with, trust the man who was in there with him. And I don't know where people get the idea that Bowe would get knocked out so easy, he took a lot of punishment in his fights and I think he was only down, what, 2 times? The Golota fight he took shots which by themselves could ruin a fighter, that's without the rest of the punishment he took in his career.
 
Some of these criticisms of Bowe are strange. Bowe didn't have a good jab? WTF? Bowe didn't have power?
 
mozfonky said:
holyfield said Bowe had a good fast jab that he had trouble with, trust the man who was in there with him. And I don't know where people get the idea that Bowe would get knocked out so easy, he took a lot of punishment in his fights and I think he was only down, what, 2 times? The Golota fight he took shots which by themselves could ruin a fighter, that's without the rest of the punishment he took in his career.
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please bear in mind the biggest puncher he fought was Herbie Hide, who had him in trouble at one point

he took a lot of shots off fighters who had decent power, and was hurt more than once
 
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