International Four Americans Killed in Syria by ISIS

[scoopj]

I would say the instability ramped up exponentially when we pulled out in 2014, wouldn't you agree?

All of our defeated foes ganged up and started a rape and beheading fest within months of departure while literally parading through the streets with our equipment.

It is morally wrong to abandon our allies and the innocent civilians in the region to these thugs and to the expansionist ambitions of the Turks, Russians, and Iranians. They're all licking their chops at the prospect of broken states on their border to absorb.

More practically it's in own interest to secure stability in the region to secure access to its natural resources and create new trading partners and safe trade routes.

The world isn't at peace yet and I don't think it's about to get any safer. It's also in our interest to have a well practiced and experienced military. We have the only army at such a scale that has so much experience in modern warfare and that is one of our greatest strengths. Demonstrations of our prowess are important to keep everyone in their chairs and if we're going to be spending so much goddamn money on it we might as well be using it.

The massive drawdown happened in 2011, but I guess that doesn’t help you’re narrative.

 

[Rational Poster]

The massive drawdown happened in 2011, but I guess that doesn’t help you’re narrative.

2011 was the start date of the withdrawal, 2014 was the date we agreed to be finished and would be out and met.

Doesn't hurt my narrative at all.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The people of Iraq and Syria who actually have the right to be there don't care whether or not our Congress agreed to let us bomb their country, though I'm sure they'd have preferred we didn't. I think it's a rather irrelevant difference from a moral perspective.

I care as an American because I don't quite like the fact that our government, particularly the executive branch, feels it has the right to go stomping around all over the world.

It's not right to abandon the Kurds and our allies in Iraq.. again and doing so would abandon those lands to increasingly more and more belligerent rival states and extremists.

I'm not talking about Iraq, I'm talking about Syria. I would rather we leave Iraq as well but I accept the "you break it, you buy it" argument there much more so. But we shouldn't be in Syria and good on Trump for taking us out.

hi Madmick.

not just Mattis. not just Bolton. and not just Senator Graham.

add President Obama and former candidate for POTUS, Mrs. Clinton to that list.

none of the aforementioned advocated pulling up the stakes and getting out of dodge.

- IGIT

Citing Clinton doesn't help your argument, not after her little adventure in Libya went so wrong. Obama was not a fan of intervening in the MidEast but seemed compelled to do so by the hawks in his administration like Clinton.

 

[Rational Poster]

I care as an American because I don't quite like the fact that our government, particularly the executive branch, feels it has the right to go stomping around all over the world.

I'm not talking about Iraq, I'm talking about Syria. I would rather we leave Iraq as well but I accept the "you break it, you buy it" argument there much more so. But we shouldn't be in Syria and good on Trump for taking us out.

Citing Clinton doesn't help your argument, not after her little adventure in Libya went so wrong. Obama was not a fan of intervening in the MidEast but seemed compelled to do so by the hawks in his administration like Clinton.

Kurdish forces in Syria have been vital in our efforts to contain ISIS in Syria AND Iraq.

Syria is barely even a thing anymore. It's impossible to stop the chaos from spilling over the border.

 

[Rational Poster]

Shiite militias, supported by Iran, were a huge part of taking Mosul. That much is not in doubt.

On the Syrian side Hezbollah helped Assad with manpower and Russians with air power and that was decisive. Russians bombed the Islamist radicals that the US supported because the US was using them to further regime change in the interests of Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran may have acted for its own benefit but so does the US so that's essentially an irrelevant criticism.

Kurds no doubt helped but that was primarily in the regions they claimed, outside it it was the Damascus/Tehran/Moscow coalition doing the heavy lifting.

"The force includes 54,000 members of the Iraqi Security Forces and 40,000 Kurdish Peshmerga fighters. It also involves 14,000 members of paramilitary units -- 9,000 Sunni fighters, and 5,000 from other minorities including Christians, Turkmen and Yazidis. Shia paramilitaries will not be involved in the assault on Mosul, but will be tasked with securing areas around the city instead."

 

[scoopj]

2011 was the start date of the withdrawal, 2014 was the date we agreed to be finished and would be out and met.

Doesn't hurt my narrative at all.

Wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq

“President Barack Obama paid tribute to the troops who served in Iraq on 14 December 2011, at the Fort Bragg military base in North Carolina. As the last of the American troops prepared to exit Iraq, he said the United States was leaving behind a "sovereign, stable and self-reliant" Iraq.[39] On 15 December, an American military ceremony was held in Baghdad putting a formal end to the U.S. mission in Iraq.[40][41][42] The last 500 soldiers left Iraq on the morning of 18 December 2011.[1][2][3][4][5][6] At the time of withdrawal, the United States had one remaining soldier, Staff Sergeant Ahmed K. Altaie, still missing in Iraq since 23 October 2006, and had offered a $50,000 reward for his recovery.[43] On 26 February 2012, his death was confirmed.[44][45][46]”

 

[Islam Imamate]

Kurdish forces in Syria have been vital in our efforts to contain ISIS in Syria AND Iraq.

That's fine and I know that but we invaded Iraq, not Syria, so that's where we should stay. If we want to go into Syria let's do it the right way and have a Congressional vote on it at the very least if not also a UN resolution.

Syria is barely even a thing anymore. It's impossible to stop the chaos from spilling over the border.

That doesn't give America the right to be in Syria, especially when the government of that state does not even want us there.

"The force includes 54,000 members of the Iraqi Security Forces and 40,000 Kurdish Peshmerga fighters. It also involves 14,000 members of paramilitary units -- 9,000 Sunni fighters, and 5,000 from other minorities including Christians, Turkmen and Yazidis. Shia paramilitaries will not be involved in the assault on Mosul, but will be tasked with securing areas around the city instead."

What's your point here? The Shiite militias were clearly not ideal for taking the largest Sunni city in Iraq for obvious reasons but even according to that quote they helped secure areas around it and were without a doubt a key part of the ground forces against ISIS in Iraq.

 

[Rational Poster]

That's fine and I know that but we invaded Iraq, not Syria, so that's where we should stay. If we want to go into Syria let's do it the right way and have a Congressional vote on it at the very least if not also a UN resolution.

That doesn't give America the right to be in Syria, especially when the government of that state does not even want us there.

What's your point here? The Shiite militias were clearly not ideal for taking the largest Sunni city in Iraq for obvious reasons but even according to that quote they helped secure areas around it and were without a doubt a key part of the ground forces against ISIS in Iraq.

You said they were a huge part in taking Mosul when they were specifically not even allowed to enter the city.

And you seem all too willing to completely ignore the massive Kurdish contributions to our effort over an imaginary line that's rapidly fading.

That's my point.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Isis as not being a major threat isn't a declaration they will never have small scale attacks again. The premise of the op is flawed.

 

[Mike Hagger]

Lol at accusing me of being sourced from RT, looks like you're getting all defensive about the US role in the region.

Its most definitely the case that the heavy lifting done outside the Kurdish areas against ISIS was by the Iranian backed Shiite militias. Iran has its interests in the region but so does the US and neither are innocent. But at least Iran is in the region and has a more legitimate security interest than the US.

Which militia group do you think did the most? Which one outpaced US bombs being dropped? Apache helicopters doing daily missions? And divisions of Iraqi army supported by the coalition?

I know a few names, namely Badr.. I don't deny they did stuff, mostly clean up work and regional security, small militia groups were so many in number and with little leadership.. saying they essentially carried the burden is an exaggeration. Their strength actually grew after areas were secure. Some fought each other. Some were totally propped up by Iran specifically to influence elections...

I'm not arguing US "role", I'm arguing schematics, where you're wrong. I was defensive about Mosul, you said it was militias that fought that fight, that's wrong. Iraqis themselves paid in full to win that fight. There ought to be books written on that offensive.

I'd argue that the US absolutely has an interest in Iraq. There's no denying we set the conditions for much of the problems currently ongoing. For that reason I believe there was a debt that the US was just in it's efforts to destroy ISIS. Iran wants more than secure Iraq.. we all know that, but Iraqis burned down their diplomatic building in Basra just last summer and their party was not welcomed into the office during the election.. actually a very nationalistic view was seemingly most popular.

 

[hillelslovak87]

"The force includes 54,000 members of the Iraqi Security Forces and 40,000 Kurdish Peshmerga fighters. It also involves 14,000 members of paramilitary units -- 9,000 Sunni fighters, and 5,000 from other minorities including Christians, Turkmen and Yazidis. Shia paramilitaries will not be involved in the assault on Mosul, but will be tasked with securing areas around the city instead."

You could up the Iraqi security forces to 154,000. Would not make too much a difference. They are one of the, if not the worst military forces on planet Earth. The whole reason our US forces went after AQ and insurgent forces in Iraq was because they had to reduce their capabilities to a point where even the Iraqi forces could combat them. They have shit gear, no training, and many officers have bribed their way into positions.

 

[Mike Hagger]

You could up the Iraqi security forces to 154,000. Would not make too much a difference. They are one of the, if not the worst military forces on planet Earth. The whole reason our US forces went after AQ and insurgent forces in Iraq was because they had to reduce their capabilities to a point where even the Iraqi forces could combat them. They have shit gear, no training, and many officers have bribed their way into positions.

The worst? Lol apparently you've never been to Africa or Afghanistan.. they do have gear, we gave it to them.

They're not the best by any means and they're generally cowardly when they're not supported by coalition forces. But there's some pretty strong units in there.. namely the guys SF ran for a decade, unfortunately most of them are dead now.

 

[hillelslovak87]

The worst? Lol apparently you've never been to Africa or Afghanistan.. they do have gear, we gave it to them.

They're not the best by any means and they're generally cowardly when they're not supported by coalition forces. But there's some pretty strong units in there.. namely the guys SF ran for a decade, unfortunately most of them are dead now.

Jocko Willink was in charge of training these people, and his assessment of their training and gear was that they were the worst equipped, worst trained fighting group on earth. He said it would take literal generations to train them to even be on the lower tier of fighting forces. They had Chinese and Iraqi AK knockoffs that were so rusted the sights couldn't be sighted, had patchwork kevlar with holes, and couldn't do pushups or jumping jacks effectively.

 

[Mike Hagger]

Jocko Willink was in charge of training these people, and his assessment of their training and gear was that they were the worst equipped, worst trained fighting group on earth. He said it would take literal generations to train them to even be on the lower tier of fighting forces. They had Chinese and Iraqi AK knockoffs that were so rusted the sights couldn't be sighted, had patchwork kevlar with holes, and couldn't do pushups or jumping jacks effectively.

What year?

Look up ICTF that's who SF trained. I'm not surprised a seal would struggle to train with and fight with a force. Not generally their role.

My point is some have come along way. I would not consider them the worst currently not by a long shot.

 

[hillelslovak87]

What year?

Look up ICTF that's who SF trained. I'm not surprised a seal would struggle to train with and fight with a force. Not generally their role.

2006.

 

[Mike Hagger]

2006.

That's the first year i worked with Iraqis and it was challenging but we really did poor a shit ton of equipment on them. Some of which ISIS acquired when outposts abandoned it. Shia vs Sunni units, it's a very defining line of the effort you get.

Today they're not good, but I've seen worse. He's not wrong that it takes along time. Longer than I think anyone anticipated, which lead to false reporting. But here's ICTF.

https://thenewsrep.com/75637/u-s-sp...ng-iraqi-special-forces-retake-mosul-airport/

 

[hillelslovak87]

That's the first year i worked with Iraqis and it was challenging but we really did poor a shit ton of equipment on them. Some of which ISIS acquired when outposts abandoned it. Shia vs Sunni units, it's a very defining line of the effort you get.

Today they're not good, but I've seen worse. He's not wrong that it takes along time. Longer than I think anyone anticipated, which lead to false reporting. But here's ICTF.

https://thenewsrep.com/75637/u-s-sp...ng-iraqi-special-forces-retake-mosul-airport/

One can only hope they keep improving. Shitty thing, having to reinsert troops over and over again.

 

[Mike Hagger]

One can only hope they keep improving. Shitty thing, having to reinsert troops over and over again.

Yes agreed. I sincerely want stability and for Iraq to deal with it's own problems internally and diplomatically.. I think they've suffered enough.

 

[lifelessheap]

It’s the result on not understanding your enemy.


All it takes is a little study of Islamic end of times theology, and boom, everything the terrorists do makes complete sense.



And btw, we’ll never see an end to it without a reformation of Islam within the community itself.

Reformers will be seen as traitors to Islam. It isn't going to happen. Cancer can't heal itself.

 

[Rational Poster]

You could up the Iraqi security forces to 154,000. Would not make too much a difference. They are one of the, if not the worst military forces on planet Earth. The whole reason our US forces went after AQ and insurgent forces in Iraq was because they had to reduce their capabilities to a point where even the Iraqi forces could combat them. They have shit gear, no training, and many officers have bribed their way into positions.

That is the troop composition that retook Mosul from ISIS...