Former UFC champion Quinton Jackson says he knows fighters have taken dives for money: “There’s been

[StonedLemur]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of either, a striking agreement or a grappling agreement, that's why I love MMA more than Thai boxing or Submission Wrestling. The entirety of the sport makes for endless possibilities, like Volk vs Islam or Ortega vs Volk.

I agree about not being a fan of either.
MMA putting everything together makes it exciting on every level the fight takes place.
Shows many different aspects of submissions by strikers on grapplers and vice versa.

Love this stuff sir.

 

[sonhow]

This is the Shamrock/Rich gif that people keep sharing and claiming was part of a fixed fight. This has further context as it looks like Shamrock slips and he ankle picks Rich who tries to go for a gogoplata before Ken is escapes and goes for a heel hook.

Are you somekind of a witch!?! I mean the fight ends right there on that gif but somehow you are telling me it doesnt and somehow you even have video proof? I could have sworn Ken just laid there and was taken away with a stretcher actually I think he was taken to the graveyard thats how far they waent with their fight fixing.
Wtf man

 

[Bullitt68]

Jesus Christ, the lack of facts and context in this thread is hurting my brain.

1) Rampage is one of the saltiest fighters ever and he loves to talk shit. I've never put much stock in what he's had to say. So already we've got an unreliable source here.

2) Do the people who think that Saku/Newton was fixed also think that Saku's previous fight with Vernon White was fixed, because both of those fights were submission grappling affairs? If two guys in MMA decide to stand and trade, it's a "gentleman's agreement," but if they decide to grapple, it's fixed. Not bulletproof logic there. Especially considering the prominence in the 1990s Japanese MMA scene of Pancrase, where there was no closed-fist punching and almost never any GNP by gentleman's agreement, and of Rings, another org where there was no GNP to the head, it makes perfect sense given the cultural context and the nature of the Japanese MMA scene that some PRIDE fights would have a Pancrase or Rings flavor.

3) The weirdness of Ken's fall against Franklin was the result of bad timing: If you look at Ken's posture, he was about to go after Rich's leg, possibly for an Imanari-type of entry to a leg lock - look at the way that he drops on his left foot while the right foot is ready for a push-off - but at the exact moment that he was about to change levels, Franklin threw a punch, and Ken was caught in a no-man's-land where he was already in motion for offense but then noticed the punch coming and tried to switch to defense. The result was an interrupted offensive move that left Ken off-balance and so he fell. But he recovered immediately, secured the TD, and eventually dropped back and got the leg lock anyway. And even though Ken lost - because at that point he no longer had a chin - Franklin ended up going to the hospital that night courtesy of Ken's heel hook.

 

[GIBLERTBAPTISTA]

That's why I can't weigh Pride accomplishments as heavy as UFC accomplishments. Way different circumstances.

There were fixed fights in early UFC also. Macais vs Taktarov, Frye vs Mark Hall and Belfort vs Joe Charles were all very sussy.

More recently Tae Hyun Bang took money to throw a fight in the UFC (which he ended up winning anyway), he came forward and admitted it but there have almost definitely been others who havent. You also have the James Krause debacle.

I don't think the UFC as a promotion is fixing fights, but a lot of shady shit has gone on over the years.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

If two guys in MMA decide to stand and trade, it's a "gentleman's agreement," but if they decide to grapple, it's fixed

Both are frowned upon, but an agreement not to throw strikes is worse…it’s a glorified grappling match under the guise of MMA rules, which is what Saku-Newton was for many years. At least two guys trading punches is an actual fight.

I rewatched the match during the Tamura thread, and the grappling is weird, even in comparison to the other matches in PRIDE 1-5. White-Saku was a totally different level of competition, too. But say they had an agreement not to punch…that means it wasn’t an actual fight. It isn’t an all-time great example of grappling in MMA because it isn’t a fight.

 

[Bullitt68]

Both are frowned upon

By whom? If the fighters want to fight a certain way, then go to it, and if the result is, in the case of Saku/Newton, one of the all-time great grappling battles in MMA history, why complain?

I rewatched the match during the Tamura thread, and the grappling is weird, even in comparison to the other matches in PRIDE 1-5.

Have you ever seen old Pancrase or Rings matches? Are those also "weird" to you?

White-Saku was a totally different level of competition, too.

What does this mean? It's better or worse than Saku/Newton (and why)? Or it's more likely/less likely fake (and why)?

But say they had an agreement not to punch…that means it wasn’t an actual fight. It isn’t an all-time great example of grappling in MMA because it isn’t a fight.

This is a different argument. I don't care if people don't consider it a "fight," but I care very much if people think that it was fixed/fake.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

By whom? If the fighters want to fight a certain way, then go to it, and if the result is, in the case of Saku/Newton, one of the all-time great grappling battles in MMA history, why complain?

Because it matters to people. This thread has been done a bunch of times, and people remain curious about PRIDE and other fake fights. The match still lives on, too. I saw that the UFC uploaded it to one of their official pages not too long ago.

My point is that, given all we know about MMA and grappling in 2023, I can’t consider it an all-time great example of grappling in MMA, or even grappling in general. (Royler was playing a looser guard in MMA at the time, but his opponent was clearly resisting.) I don’t think any less of Saku or Newton, either. Just wish they had fought in their primes. I mean, throw punches and compete in an MMA bout. Not complaining though.


For the record, Newton still maintains that it was a fight. He compares the experience to the Paulson bout, which I have no doubt was a real fight. But the tape is pretty clear on Saku-Newton, imo.

What does this mean? It's better or worse than Saku/Newton (and why)? Or it's more likely/less likely fake (and why)?

I’m saying that I don’t think it was a fake fight.

Have you ever seen old Pancrase or Rings matches? Are those also "weird" to you?

I have. And, yes, you can see pretty easily (less so in Pancrase) when the grappling has cooperation. That was one of the points of a similar thread last year — whether or not RINGS had ‘real fights’, and the answer was dependent upon date/fighter, really.

This is listed on many websites that collect fight records, and it’s clearly not a real fight. Moreover, a pro-wrestling fan posted a PW database that had a decent amount of so-called fights on them, only from a different perspective. I checked them against FF records…a decent amount of them shouldn’t be accepted as MMA.

I don’t mind, though. Tamura has an inflated record, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have skills or wasn’t a badass. That stuff is all interesting to me; yet I know — 20 years down, thousands of fights/grappling matches — what is and what isn’t an actual fight. Sure, I can be tricked, but the clear-as-day ones are easily pointed out: four fake fights from PRIDE 1-5, which isn’t a lot.

 

[Richard Fannin]

Oh I was just referring to the horrendous beatings Saku took in some of his matches, where the refs sort of let the fact that he was a Japanese icon dictate late stoppages. It was more or less tongue in cheek. Rampage tends to disparage any org he’s been under contract with, and some his claims are particularly random, like being offered a few thousand to take a dive against shogun which he declined-but got shit on anyway…..so one would assume he’d get paid regardless lol. I don’t put particular stock in Gary, either. He’s absorbed plenty of abuse to the head and it’s more than ‘convenient’ he happens to take issue with Pride matchmaking in its very early days when it did not have a firm identity. I just find the entire Pride era fascinating, to be honest.

Oops, my bad then. Sakuraba vs Carlos Newton was early in Saku's career, so he hadn't taken too much damage by then
(Newton had twice the amount of MMA bouts, and grappling-wise had taken part in the ADCC 98 a few months before that bout)

And indeed, when randos claim that Sakuraba was always protected by the refs, you can be sure they haven't watched his first fight with "Conan" Marcus Silveira (early stoppage from Big John),
the first Nino "Elvis" Schembri fight, in which Elvis won via headbutting Saku right in the jaw, and the ref did nothing...
or the Ricardo Arona fight, which was a bloodbath that should have been stopped earlier, and I think the ref didn't even give Arona a yellow card for cut-gouging, and just a warning, right?...

the Smirnovas fight that should have been stopped when Saku was though the ropes and clearly badly rocked...

the Sexyama fight in which the ref completely ignored Saku while he was protesting (I mean, the ref have the right to ignore a fighter while the match is going on, but if he was so protected, then you'd assume that the ref would have stepped in) and then stopped the fight right when Saku was trying a comeback and had Sexy in a loose armbar I think? (been a long time)
Saku was piiiissed after that one...

The Zelg "Benkei" Galesic fight was another Smirnovas-type situation, and it sucked because Saku is my favorite fighter ever, but I had been on the "Lil' CroCop" bandwagon since his Cage Rage days

The Ralek Gracie fight was the time I was the most furious at a referee screwjob in MMA, ever. For important context if new fans are reading this, they were fighting in a cage/ring hybdrig, not a ring. Sakuraba had Ralek in a fairly tight kimura, the crowd started to go nuts, and that's when the ref decided that they were too close to the ropes so he would restart the fight in the middle of the cage.
Dude, they made that special DREAM cage to avoid your refs having to break the acting for restarts, what was the point of that?
Saku didn't want to let go without a good reason, but in the end he let go and then didn't make a fuss about it, but damn, was I pissed, dude could have another Gracie notch on his belt!


So yeah, when "Jean-MMA-2023" shows up with his Mezger-Saku fight as proof that Saku was heavily protected by the referees his whole career, it gives me a headache.
Sure that circumstance sucked for Mezger, but it's an isolated incident compared to all the times the refs seemed to be working against the IQ Wrestler for some reason.
I just wish had retired after the Funaki fight, and started QUINTET right away.


Also, I had no idea Rampage claimed that he was asked to throw the Shogun fight... I found nothing about it online, you sure you didn't mistake it for the Sakuraba fight?
Rampage claims that some guy approached him and offered him a bonus if he either won via impressive KO (Rampage doesn't always tell that part of the story), or if he were to get caught in a choke, then please let yourself get chocked unconscious, because PRIDE wants pictures of Sakuraba standing over a KO'd huge black dude, good for business!

Quinton told him to fuck off, but sadly lost the fight via choke anyway, after trying to slam Saku through the ring several times. Rampage, after the Matt Lindland fight, did a very nice interview with FightMagazine in which he explained that he wanted to beat "all the guys who have beat me, I want Silva, I want Rua, I even want old ass Sakuraba and his do-boy Matsui"
But in the same interview he also praises Saku and claims that this was the only loss on his record that didn't bother him, because unlike the others, it was a submission and he was completely spent at that point...

I do remember that Rampage wasn't happy to fight Shogun, because he had just fought his brother Ninja, and his best friend Wanderlei twice, so Mauricio would be very aware of his flaws and how to take him out.
When Shogun called him out in the ring right after the Ninja fight, Quinton was very honest, told him that he didn't want to fight him, but if the match-makers want to make it happen, then so be it, but he had other match-ups in mind...

He even made a joke about how Wanderlei keep sending him his cronies "first Ninja, then Shogun? Who will I have to fight next, mama Rua?"

When it comes to Rampage vs Fedor, I thought it looked weird the first time watching it live, because Rampage tapped to strikes and he'd never done it before...
But the sequence that led to the finishing strike made sense, Fedor targeted Quinton's jaw so he'd drop his guard a liiiittle bit, enough so the next punch would hit him right in the temple/orbital area, and Rampage had enough at that point.

I didn't even know the Fedor vs Sonnen fight was suspected of being a fix by some people, for Tito-Chael one I can understand, but I didn't see anything shady in the Fedor one.
Good fight, I thought, but I haven't rewatched it in some times...

 

[Bullitt68]

Because it matters to people.

Why? Why do you care if a guy wants to stand and bang - or go to the mat and grapple - and the opponent obliges? Newton obliged Sakuraba and they fought the way that they fought. Allan Goes didn't oblige and they fought the way that they fought. (Same thing happened in Pancrase, too: When Allan Goes fought Frank Shamrock, he was GNPing the whole way through, whereas the Japanese crew had the gentlemen's agreement to not GNP. Alternatively, if someone does decide to GNP, then that opens the door for the opponent, hence Frank Shamrock punching Bas to the body on the ground in their third fight and Bas then kneeing Frank in the head.) There's no rule that gives Big John the power to step in and tell two guys kickboxing that they have to start wrestling or Yuji Shimada the power to step in and tell two guys grappling that they have to start punching each other. That's the beauty of MMA, it's all styles and techniques under the sun.

This thread has been done a bunch of times, and people remain curious about PRIDE and other fake fights.

And other than the fact that a lot of new(er) fans know very little about the history of the sport and the contexts of fights from the past, this proves what?

My point is that, given all we know about MMA and grappling in 2023, I can’t consider it an all-time great example of grappling in MMA, or even grappling in general.

And again, this is fine, but it's a different conversation. If it doesn't fit your ideal of what an MMA fight is supposed to be, then disregard it all you want. It's your loss. But that's a far cry from declaring that because there was no GNP it means that it was fixed/fake. That's just straight up nonsense and should be clarified in this thread.

For the record, Newton still maintains that it was a fight. He compares the experience to the Paulson bout, which I have no doubt was a real fight. But the tape is pretty clear on Saku-Newton, imo.

Well, it was a fight - the definition of fighting isn't so narrow as to prescribe how you have to fight for what you're doing to be a fight - it just wasn't the kind of fight you want/expect when you watch MMA.

I have. And, yes, you can see pretty easily (less so in Pancrase) when the grappling has cooperation. That was one of the points of a similar thread last year — whether or not RINGS had ‘real fights’, and the answer was dependent upon date/fighter, really.

And this is the point: You can't just throw out shit like "Org X had tons of fixed fights," or "Because the fight took place in Org X, it's anybody's guess and therefore every fight/fighter has an asterisk," etc., because, numbers-wise, fixed/fake fights have happened extremely rarely in MMA history, and if we had to throw out the baby with the bathwater then we'd be doing a tremendous disservice to the sport and its competitors. That, again, is the point that should be stressed in this thread.

 

[STAY GOLD]

You can put any spin and downplay fixed fights as much as you would like, but there were fixed fights in PRIDE, RINGS and Pancrase.

In PRIDE, Nobuhiko Takada had fixed fights against Mark Coleman and Kyle Sturgeon. Coleman has admitted to it iirc and the Sturgeon was well documented as a fixed fight as well.

In RINGS, a lot of Volk Han, Kiyoshi Tamura and Akira Maeda's fights were pro-wrestling and recognized as such, yet they are still documented as MMA fights. You can see the obvious cooperation in them and they are even recognized as pro-wrestling matches.

In Pancrase there were fixed fights as well. It is well documented Ken Shamrock, Minoru Suzuki and Masakatsu Funaki had fixed fights there.

It doesn't mean all of the fights in those promotions were fixed, but there were some that were and some are even recognized as pro-wrestling matches.

 

[Bullitt68]

You can put any spin and downplay fixed fights as much as you would like, but there were fixed fights in PRIDE, RINGS and Pancrase.

In PRIDE, Nobuhiko Takada had fixed fights against Mark Coleman and Kyle Sturgeon. Coleman has admitted to it iirc and the Sturgeon was well documented as a fixed fight as well.

In RINGS, a lot of Volk Han, Kiyoshi Tamura and Akira Maeda's fights were pro-wrestling and recognized as such, yet they are still documented as MMA fights. You can see the obvious cooperation in them and they are even recognized as pro-wrestling matches.

In Pancrase there were fixed fights as well. It is well documented Ken Shamrock, Minoru Suzuki and Masakatsu Funaki had fixed fights there.

It doesn't mean all of the fights in those promotions were fixed, but there were some that were and some are even recognized as pro-wrestling matches.

My problem is strictly with language. There's a world of difference between saying a few fights were fixed, a lot of fights, most fights, etc. In Pancrase, nothing extended beyond Funaki and Suzuki, the two co-founders, and Ken, their protege and the org champ. Everything was limited to them. Funaki and Suzuki worked their fight against each other pro-wrestling style, Ken dropped his second fight to Funaki and then dropped his second fight against Suzuki, and Ken worked a match with Matt Hume when Hume got injured and didn't want to risk Ken beating the hell out of him when he was less than 100%. That's it.

Similar in PRIDE where it basically starts and ends with Takada. You can even see when a Takada fight wasn't fixed, as in the abomination that was his match with Cro Cop where he just dropped to his ass like Belfort against Sakuraba and Cro Cop laughed at him at first and then by the end was visibly frustrated and disgusted at having to share the ring with him. Takada had to leave in a wheelchair because Cro Cop jacked up his foot kicking him while he was on his back, but the fight was so terrible that they didn't even put it on the PRIDE 17 DVD.



Rings was the biggest offender because unlike Pancrase it tried to be a hybrid org, and since culturally the real/fake divide mattered less to Japanese fans, it didn't matter so much in Rings. But Pancrase was started specifically because the pro wrestlers were bored and wanted the chance to put their skills to the test in real fights. Ditto with PRIDE. To act like fixed fights were the norm rather than the exception is just ignorant and people should take the time to learn about the history of the sport before popping off and spouting nonsense. That should always be the takeaway in these discussions.

 

[Richard Fannin]

You can put any spin and downplay fixed fights as much as you would like, but there were fixed fights in PRIDE, RINGS and Pancrase.

In PRIDE, Nobuhiko Takada had fixed fights against Mark Coleman and Kyle Sturgeon. Coleman has admitted to it iirc and the Sturgeon was well documented as a fixed fight as well.

But no one ever said any different... 20 years ago, sherdoggers were already making fun of the 2 fights that Takada "won"...

The UFC also had fixed fights, Don Frye vs Hall 3,
Mark Hall admitted this one was fake, while Don Frye maintains it was for real (but hey, Kimo still claims he really beat Sakuraba, so...)

Oleg Taktarov vs Anthony "Mad Dog" Macias,
Darrick Minner vs Shayilan Nuerdanbieke... (+ some guy in this thread apparently isn't aware that Ace vs Ken has been thoroughly debunked as a "fixed fight" more than a decade ago)

And Sonnen has been accused of throwing the Rashad fight, same way he was accused of throwing the Tito fight in Bellator, for instance.

But you'll never see anyone claiming that they don't take UFC records seriously, because there won "tons" of fake fights and pro-wrestling BS in the UFC. We wouldn't see Randy Couture fight a washed up boxer in the UFC, no sir, and CM Punk would have been told that this is a respectable organization and to go back to Japan with his rasslin BS.

But seriously, I think the issue with your first post (first reply in a thread claiming that lots of PRIDE fights were fixed) was the wording, other than that your post is factually correct

This has been known for years. There were a ton of fixed fights in Japan in PRIDE, RINGS, Pancrase, etc.

I think is so many people react that way is because almost every time someone claims that PRIDE was ripe with fixed matches, and someone asks them "oh yeah, like what PRIDE fights for instance?" it's either radio silence, or if we're lucky we're going to get the same 2 Takada fights + Koji Kitao vs Nathan Jones. It's always the same 3 bouts...

There are more "suspect" fights in Bellator than in PRIDE, like Ken Shamrock vs Kimbo
Tito Ortiz vs Chael Sonnen,
arguably Rampage vs Sonnen, Royce vs Ken 3,

Anyway, when it comes to RINGS, it's a different story...

 

[STAY GOLD]

But no one ever said any different... 20 years ago, sherdoggers were already making fun of the 2 fights that Takada "won"...

Right, that's why I mentioned this was known years ago in my first post.

The UFC also had fixed fights...

Yes, sir. The Shamrock's dad I believe it was that talked about this.

I think the issue with your first post (first reply in a thread claiming that lots of PRIDE fights were fixed) was the wording, other than that your post is factually correct

That's fair, but you get the gist of what I meant.

 

[STAY GOLD]

My problem is strictly with language. There's a world of difference between saying a few fights were fixed, a lot of fights, most fights, etc.

That's fair. I guess I should've rephrased what I meant, but you get the gist of it. That's why I also mentioned it's not a good idea to loop in all of PRIDE solely because a few fights were fixed.

 

[Karl_Hungus]

I'm sure things have happened, but it is rare. Rampage is not exactly a reliable source, either. Anyone familiar with his history of turning on people he used to praise will understand this.

 

[Richard Fannin]

Yes, sir. The Shamrock's dad I believe it was that talked about this.

Sorry to bump a dying thread just for that sir, but I'm curious now; did you mean Bob Shamrock? (adoptive father of Ken and Frank, and the main reason behind their feud, before and after he had passed away... he seemed like a very good man, though)

I assumed it was the case and googled some stuff like "Bob Shamrock fixed UFC fights" and came up with a bunch of stuff, but didn't find an interview of his on this subject...

go watch the shamrock/ frankling gif again. dude jumps and lands on his toes like a total retard, falls, and then ACE swings. you cant negate that.

Yes we can.
Come on, this fight being a fix meme died more than a decade ago, when someone decided to make a longer gif of the sequence, which now made sense.

Kevin Holland and Wonderboy just had a "gentlemans agreement" fight like a month ago, only difference it was striking and not grappling.

2) Do the people who think that Saku/Newton was fixed also think that Saku's previous fight with Vernon White was fixed, because both of those fights were submission grappling affairs? If two guys in MMA decide to stand and trade, it's a "gentleman's agreement," but if they decide to grapple, it's fixed. Not bulletproof logic there. Especially considering the prominence in the 1990s Japanese MMA scene of Pancrase, where there was no closed-fist punching and almost never any GNP by gentleman's agreement, and of Rings, another org where there was no GNP to the head, it makes perfect sense given the cultural context and the nature of the Japanese MMA scene that some PRIDE fights would have a Pancrase or Rings flavor.

Nothing to add there, you guys said it all... I just thought I'll add that it would have been a different affair had PRIDE itself paid/coerced the fighters to make it a grappling battle, but without making special rules like for Royce vs Yoshida 2

Like, for instance Kimbo Slice vs Seth "Silverback" Petruzelli, in which Seth was offered extra cash if he kept it on the feet
Now that's shady.

But 2 guys agreeing to grapple or strike only, as long as it doesn't happen every event, and not in important fights (like title fights, or title eliminators, etc etc) I'm cool with that.
Conor McGregor tried to shame his opponents into keeping the fights standing up, coining the "crotch sniffing" and "panic wrestlers" terms and saying he doesn't consider it a loss if he loses via submission, blablabla

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

Sorry to bump a dying thread just for that sir, but I'm curious now; did you mean Bob Shamrock? (adoptive father of Ken and Frank, and the main reason behind their feud, before and after he had passed away... he seemed like a very good man, though)

I assumed it was the case and googled some stuff like "Bob Shamrock fixed UFC fights" and came up with a bunch of stuff, but didn't find an interview of his on this subject...


Yes we can.
Come on, this fight being a fix meme died more than a decade ago, when someone decided to make a longer gif of the sequence, which now made sense.





Nothing to add there, you guys said it all... I just thought I'll add that it would have been a different affair had PRIDE itself paid/coerced the fighters to make it a grappling battle, but without making special rules like for Royce vs Yoshida 2

Like, for instance Kimbo Slice vs Seth "Silverback" Petruzelli, in which Seth was offered extra cash if he kept it on the feet
Now that's shady.

But 2 guys agreeing to grapple or strike only, as long as it doesn't happen every event, and not in important fights (like title fights, or title eliminators, etc etc) I'm cool with that.
Conor McGregor tried to shame his opponents into keeping the fights standing up, coining the "crotch sniffing" and "panic wrestlers" terms and saying he doesn't consider it a loss if he loses via submission, blablabla

Yes we can, but I won't!

 

[StonedLemur]

Sorry to bump a dying thread just for that sir, but I'm curious now; did you mean Bob Shamrock? (adoptive father of Ken and Frank, and the main reason behind their feud, before and after he had passed away... he seemed like a very good man, though)

I assumed it was the case and googled some stuff like "Bob Shamrock fixed UFC fights" and came up with a bunch of stuff, but didn't find an interview of his on this subject...


Yes we can.
Come on, this fight being a fix meme died more than a decade ago, when someone decided to make a longer gif of the sequence, which now made sense.





Nothing to add there, you guys said it all... I just thought I'll add that it would have been a different affair had PRIDE itself paid/coerced the fighters to make it a grappling battle, but without making special rules like for Royce vs Yoshida 2

Like, for instance Kimbo Slice vs Seth "Silverback" Petruzelli, in which Seth was offered extra cash if he kept it on the feet
Now that's shady.

But 2 guys agreeing to grapple or strike only, as long as it doesn't happen every event, and not in important fights (like title fights, or title eliminators, etc etc) I'm cool with that.
Conor McGregor tried to shame his opponents into keeping the fights standing up, coining the "crotch sniffing" and "panic wrestlers" terms and saying he doesn't consider it a loss if he loses via submission, blablabla

Im a fan of letting the fight happen the way it should.
If 2 guys wanna just stand and make an agreement thats not organic.

If a fight stays on the feet because 2 guys feel comfortable there without an agreement, im cool with that.

Some feels fucky to me when guys change the rules in a weird way.
They signed to fight under a set of rules.

You don't think Holland would've taken Wonderboy down if that agreement wasn't made?
Of course he would've he was getting his ass kicked.
He kept his word and that is honorable, but he took an unnecessary beating when he has other tools.

Im old, im sorry for lashing out lol.

 

[STAY GOLD]

Sorry to bump a dying thread just for that sir, but I'm curious now; did you mean Bob Shamrock? (adoptive father of Ken and Frank, and the main reason behind their feud, before and after he had passed away... he seemed like a very good man, though)

I assumed it was the case and googled some stuff like "Bob Shamrock fixed UFC fights" and came up with a bunch of stuff, but didn't find an interview of his on this subject...

Yeah, Bob. He spoke about that with the author one of the Ken Shamrock books.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

In a recent YouTube video, Sakuraba was asked why neither fighter used ground striking in the newton fight (pride 3).

Sakuraba explained "because we both wanted to win by submission." Considering that all their previous wins were due to joint locks, it totally makes sense. Did Sakuraba try to hide about the secret agreement? I don't believe so.

Quinton Jackson didn't throw a single punch to Satoshi Ishii's head when they were on the ground. It did look odd. But did someone pay rampage to give up with certain moves? I don't believe so.