Former top Vatican official says pope should resign over abuse crisis

[jax7]

That's the point I'm trying to make: Forget about the religion aspect. If you strip that away, you're left with a massive organization that has a systemic problem with pedophilia (i can't think of too many things I would really consider 'evil', but pedophilia qualifies) Then consider that there's constantly new cases emerging, and now we know that the highest levels (including the current pope) of the organization had prior knowledge of this behaviour. That's called a cover-up, it's not complicated. If this were any other entity, a secular charity or a business for example, we would shut that shit down fast, it wouldn't matter who was running it. And it's irrelevant in this case as well, there's a problem that hasn't been dealt with (if you believe that only one or two generations of priests indulged in this behaviour, you're simply coming to illogical conclusions), and any leadership that comes from within that organization will not be sufficient to root it out. Hence, open it all up, let independent investigators see how long this has been going on for, and just how extensive it really is.

I agree. It's the only way.

 

[jax7]

Atheist. But this dude makes me.hate Catholic Church a bit less by the virtue of being a very down-to-earth, open to church evolving with times and overall critical of areas where criticism was due. He's got a big job ahead of him but he seems like a good man.

You mean like being critical of a gay mafia in the Church and seminaries that preyed upon young men? McCarrick and wuerl are only the tip of the iceberg.

I have spoken with more than one priest who has confirmed that many seminaries were controlled by homosexuals who would make life miserable for straight, orthodox seminarians. Once in power these homosexuals even cover for those of their kind who abuse even children let alone young adults. It's sickening. There are many books on this subject.

A "good man" doesn't promote Cardinal Daneels who was caught on tape trying to suppress abuse by a fellow bishop. But hey the Pope is so progressive and cool right?

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I still can't believe those that defend Pope Francis or say he is "legit." You must not be Catholic or are a heretic. There is no other option at this point.

I don't have the time to list all of his failings, but let's look at his inner circle first. I implore everyone to search these names and include the word scandal. Daneels, Cupich, McCarrick, Wuerl, Tobin. And last but not least father James Martin.

Look up how he handled the recent scandal in Chile involving a bishop there. Look up the Dubia. How about the gay sex parties and porno in the Vatican apartments? He is scandalous period.

How do Catholics expect to bring home our Protestant brothers when the Pope openly encourages homosexual behavior? He has tried to change the dogmatic teachings on the death penalty, and allowing divorced and remarried couples to receive Holy Communion. The list goes on and on. Any time he opens his mouth about holy scripture he makes a fool of himself. Just search up his thoughts on what the multiplication of fish and loaves was all about.

It's time for those supporting him to openly admit that you want a church that embraces a total reimagining of the Church and it's doctrines. For those who claim this is a "conservative" smear campaign. THERE IS NO CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL, ONLY CATHOLIC! You either accept all the churches teachings or not. It's time for him to resign and clean out the homosexual mafia that took over the seminaries and ultimately the highest offices of the Church.

Father James Martin is a smug turd. Have you read anything by Ross Douthat? He has debated with Martin and written articles and a book criticizing Pope Francis. Here is a good interview about his book:

 

[Rational Poster]

I'm quite certain Catholic orphanages have been used as pleasure palaces for the elites since Roman times.

 

[Grenz]

I'm quite certain Catholic orphanages have been used as pleasure palaces for the elites since Roman times.

Seriously though, it has to be made known how long this has been going on for. We know for a fact there’s a massive problem, do we really believe this just started in the last century? How long is the history of pedophelia in the Catholic Church? Does it go back to Roman times and has been there ever since? If so, at what point do we just shut this down? Imagine if there was a global organization that built private schools in virtually every country on the planet and it came out that children were raped there on a regular basis. That organization would be shut down, no city or town would want one of their schools. But here we’re talking about reform, like there isn’t a nuclear option.

 

[AznTrojan]

that's fucked up.. the vatican should come down hard on the the pope and suspend him for the 1st 3 games of the college football season...

 

[trident]

Burn the church

How can anyone put up with this shit?

You know they rape kids on biblical levels and you still go to Mass.

Something fucked in the head with Catholics. There is a sickness.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

All popes for the last 100 years knew about this shit. Was this official calling for John Paul II or Benedict to step down?

 

[Rational Poster]

Seriously though, it has to be made known how long this has been going on for. We know for a fact there’s a massive problem, do we really believe this just started in the last century? How long is the history of pedophelia in the Catholic Church? Does it go back to Roman times and has been there ever since? If so, at what point do we just shut this down? Imagine if there was a global organization that built private schools in virtually every country on the planet and it came out that children were raped there on a regular basis. That organization would be shut down, no city or town would want one of their schools. But here we’re talking about reform, like there isn’t a nuclear option.

I shudder to think about all the horrors that took place throughout history in the areas people chose not to record it.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I do wonder to what extent the Church does unintentionally create this sort of problem. My pet theory has always been that the vow of celibacy is partly to blame. Sure merely being deprived of sex isn't going to turn you into a pedo and I imagine many priests break their vows of celibacy in less unsavory ways to say the least.

But I think for some priests, being given that authority over children combined with the vow of celibacy leads to a case of a lapse of self control in the form of abuse. And of course if you're not punished for it but your sinister misdeed is instead covered up then there's no disincentive that would lead you to stop. Its probably more risky for a Catholic priest to have an affair with an adult woman than it is for them to diddle kids.

I never bought any argument of celibacy leading to priests becoming pedos.

The more likely scenario is that pedos seek out positions where they will be close to kids and have authority over them i.e. priests, coaches, teachers, cops etc.....

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Father James Martin is a smug turd. Have you read anything by Ross Douthat? He has debated with Martin and written articles and a book criticizing Pope Francis. Here is a good interview about his book:

I'm waiting for him to write an in depth article on this. He's posted a couple of tweets so I assume he'll be going in depth fairly soon.

 

[SleepyBoy]

The Catholic Church should be slapped with rico and the pope should have to testify under oath before congress.

Until they get a handle on this mess, not one cent should leave the country amd go to the Vatican.

Also their assets need to be frozen to ensure they have the 100's of billions they are going to need to pay out for 10s of thousands of victims.

In others cases....
I would have also shut down the bbc, completely cleaned out all leadership, and eventually reopened it many years later.

For Penn State i would have banned their football program for LIFE.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I'm waiting for him to write an in depth article on this. He's posted a couple of tweets so I assume he'll be going in depth fairly soon.

Douthat is probably taking his time to write it. I cannot see how he will not be writing something about this. It will probably be a cover story for Time Magazine when it does come out.

 

[FinalFight]

the pope should resign and the Vatican burned to the ground.

 

[luckyshot]

I still can't believe those that defend Pope Francis or say he is "legit." You must not be Catholic or are a heretic. There is no other option at this point.

I don't have the time to list all of his failings, but let's look at his inner circle first. I implore everyone to search these names and include the word scandal. Daneels, Cupich, McCarrick, Wuerl, Tobin. And last but not least father James Martin.

Look up how he handled the recent scandal in Chile involving a bishop there. Look up the Dubia. How about the gay sex parties and porno in the Vatican apartments? He is scandalous period.

How do Catholics expect to bring home our Protestant brothers when the Pope openly encourages homosexual behavior? He has tried to change the dogmatic teachings on the death penalty, and allowing divorced and remarried couples to receive Holy Communion. The list goes on and on. Any time he opens his mouth about holy scripture he makes a fool of himself. Just search up his thoughts on what the multiplication of fish and loaves was all about.

It's time for those supporting him to openly admit that you want a church that embraces a total reimagining of the Church and it's doctrines. For those who claim this is a "conservative" smear campaign. THERE IS NO CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL, ONLY CATHOLIC! You either accept all the churches teachings or not. It's time for him to resign and clean out the homosexual mafia that took over the seminaries and ultimately the highest offices of the Church.

While I appreciate much of what you are saying, you muddy the waters unnecessarily when you indict Pope Francis for his handling of abuse cases in one breath, and then cite your exceptions with his pastoral pronouncements (such as how pastors should handle families of divorce) in the next... as if that was somehow related or supported the pertinent point.

The effect is that it sounds like you just hate the Pope and his ecumenical teachings, and see his handling of the scandal (which is not appreciable worse than any of his predecessors, and is hopefully moving in the right direction quickly) as a reason to call for his resignation.

For example, you cite the "homosexual mafia" that supposedly rose to power in some seminaries. Well, whose watch did this group rise to power under? Mostly John Paul II, the man who was canonized faster than anyone in modern history! Would you support John Paul II being decanonized over this issue? If not, how can you be calling for Francis' head? The Church and the Faith are a tapestry-- all is interconnected-- even the Communion of Saints.

If you want to debate Francis' ecumenical teachings, I'd be happy to take the conversation to PM, but that criticism doesn't belong in this thread.

I agree that there is no conservative or liberal, only Catholic or not-Catholic, and I share all of your exasperation with the bad Bishops mentioned, but for a Catholic to call for a Pope to resign-- especially if the true or deepest motive is because of intransigent attitudes towards his ecumenical teachings-- is a step so radical that it borders on schism.

 

[jax7]

While I appreciate much of what you are saying, you muddy the waters unnecessarily when you indict Pope Francis for his handling of abuse cases in one breath, and then cite your exceptions with his pastoral pronouncements (such as how pastors should handle families of divorce) in the next... as if that was somehow related or supported the pertinent point.

The effect is that it sounds like you just hate the Pope and his ecumenical teachings, and see his handling of the scandal (which is not appreciable worse than any of his predecessors, and is hopefully moving in the right direction quickly) as a reason to call for his resignation.

For example, you cite the "homosexual mafia" that supposedly rose to power in some seminaries. Well, whose watch did this group rise to power under? Mostly John Paul II, the man who was canonized faster than anyone in modern history! Would you support John Paul II being decanonized over this issue? If not, how can you be calling for Francis' head? The Church and the Faith are a tapestry-- all is interconnected-- even the Communion of Saints.

If you want to debate Francis' ecumenical teachings, I'd be happy to take the conversation to PM, but that criticism doesn't belong in this thread.

I agree that there is no conservative or liberal, only Catholic or not-Catholic, and I share all of your exasperation with the bad Bishops mentioned, but for a Catholic to call for a Pope to resign-- especially if the true or deepest motive is because of intransigent attitudes towards his ecumenical teachings-- is a step so radical that it borders on schism.

In all charity did you actually think what you wrote was in any way a defense of the Church or a reprimand of me?

First, I did not muddy any waters. The two are inseparable. The teachings on the family are directly tied to apparent direction this papacy is going with it's views on sexuality and what is considered moral or good. They openly endorse homosexual behavior. Look at the key note speaker at the recent family synod in Ireland. No other than noted homosexual supporter Fr. James Martin. Accepting homosexuality was the underlying theme of the damn thing. They led us into this by endorsing divorce and remarriage under the guise of compassion. By allowing for those in "Irregular situations" to recieve the body and blood of Christ. A direct break with dogma. If you think the plan isn't to take it further you are a fool. Next up, homosexual "irregular unions!"

Yes, I hate his and the past four Pope's position on Eucemenical relations. I didn't state one thing about those, other than that denying dogmatic truths doesn't bring us closer to our separated brothers.

Yes he has handled it worse. Why do away with restrictions and penalties Benedict had in place for accused priests? Why promote bishops known to hide valid accusations. Daneels was even caught on tape. He was disgraced yet brought back into highest echelons of power. How do these actions speak? He is directly linked to the cabal of homsexual predators currently in power.

This is hilarious! The "supposed" homosexual mafia. Do I really need to list all of the disgraced Cardinals, Bishops, and priests. Many of whom worked with and gave cover to each other. Also talk about a horrible case of "whataboutism" I denounce JPII and Benedict for not doing enough too. Yes, John Paul II was cannonized too quickly. Wrong is wrong. By making assumptions that I wouldn't condemn previous Popes outs you. You are obviously operating on a conservative/liberal church dichotomy.

Speaking of the Communion of saints may we call upon all them, including the Holy Mother of God, Mary Queen of Heaven, and St Michael to intercede to the Lord our God that the filth is exposed and rooted out of the Church.

But you don't share the exasperation! You still are blinded by the cult of Francis, and in doing so are unintentionally supporting pederasty. You honestly believe the attacks against him are some conspiracy because of his Eucemenical behavior? Look at the facts I have noted.

If a Pope is guilty of what he has been accused he should resign. Should the faithful not DEMAND that their leader be above these things? This is not merely failing to live a holy life. He demonstrated hostility toward victims of abuse, he's accused of knowing about McCarrick cover up, openly endorsed Cardinal Daneels, tried to protect Chliean Bishop, tried to change dogma by indirect ways. The list goes on and on. I don't think you understand WHO is guilty of causing schism within the church. It's funny even the German magazine Der Spiegal claims Francis made the comment he would be the one to cause schism whithin the church.

 

[jax7]

Father James Martin is a smug turd. Have you read anything by Ross Douthat? He has debated with Martin and written articles and a book criticizing Pope Francis. Here is a good interview about his book:

Thanks for the video.

 

[franklinstower]

I never bought any argument of celibacy leading to priests becoming pedos.

The more likely scenario is that pedos seek out positions where they will be close to kids and have authority over them i.e. priests, coaches, teachers, cops etc.....

This thread is fucking terrible. There are studies showing that celibates do not commit child sexual abuse at higher rates than heterosexuals and that gay men don't either. On top of that there are studies posted in this exact thread that show the Catholic Church does not have rates of pedophilia higher than other groups. Yet the same ignorant talking points keep getting spit out.


There are really two tragedies here and neither of them are specific to the Catholic Church. One- there is pedophilia in the world and it goes on way more than people think and we, the parents, are too fucking stupid to be careful about it. Two- pedophilia is so shameful and disgraceful that organizations cover it up.

Here though the Catholic Church ought to rightly be judged way more harshly than other groups. Not because they cover it up more but because the nature of the organization makes cover up massively more hypocritical and wrong. James 3-1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Because of this I say burn them down legally and socially as harshly as you like (as long as what you say it true and not bullshit) and keep doing it until the entire problem is eradicated, until the Church is by far a safer place than the boy scouts, girl scouts etc....

 

[luckyshot]

In all charity did you actually think what you wrote was in any way a defense of the Church or a reprimand of me?

First, I did not muddy any waters. The two are inseparable. The teachings on the family are directly tied to apparent direction this papacy is going with it's views on sexuality and what is considered moral or good. They openly endorse homosexual behavior. Look at the key note speaker at the recent family synod in Ireland. No other than noted homosexual supporter Fr. James Martin. Accepting homosexuality was the underlying theme of the damn thing. They led us into this by endorsing divorce and remarriage under the guise of compassion. By allowing for those in "Irregular situations" to recieve the body and blood of Christ. A direct break with dogma. If you think the plan isn't to take it further you are a fool. Next up, homosexual "irregular unions!"

Yes, I hate his and the past four Pope's position on Eucemenical relations. I didn't state one thing about those, other than that denying dogmatic truths doesn't bring us closer to our separated brothers.

Yes he has handled it worse. Why do away with restrictions and penalties Benedict had in place for accused priests? Why promote bishops known to hide valid accusations. Daneels was even caught on tape. He was disgraced yet brought back into highest echelons of power. How do these actions speak? He is directly linked to the cabal of homsexual predators currently in power.

This is hilarious! The "supposed" homosexual mafia. Do I really need to list all of the disgraced Cardinals, Bishops, and priests. Many of whom worked with and gave cover to each other. Also talk about a horrible case of "whataboutism" I denounce JPII and Benedict for not doing enough too. Yes, John Paul II was cannonized too quickly. Wrong is wrong. By making assumptions that I wouldn't condemn previous Popes outs you. You are obviously operating on a conservative/liberal church dichotomy.

Speaking of the Communion of saints may we call upon all them, including the Holy Mother of God, Mary Queen of Heaven, and St Michael to intercede to the Lord our God that the filth is exposed and rooted out of the Church.

But you don't share the exasperation! You still are blinded by the cult of Francis, and in doing so are unintentionally supporting pederasty. You honestly believe the attacks against him are some conspiracy because of his Eucemenical behavior? Look at the facts I have noted.

If a Pope is guilty of what he has been accused he should resign. Should the faithful not DEMAND that their leader be above these things? This is not merely failing to live a holy life. He demonstrated hostility toward victims of abuse, he's accused of knowing about McCarrick cover up, openly endorsed Cardinal Daneels, tried to protect Chliean Bishop, tried to change dogma by indirect ways. The list goes on and on. I don't think you understand WHO is guilty of causing schism within the church. It's funny even the German magazine Der Spiegal claims Francis made the comment he would be the one to cause schism whithin the church.

The Church needs to reform with vigor. But here's something you shouldn't miss: it always has needed to do so. Francis didn't invent this situation-- or any other situation involving clerical abuse, of which there have been myriad over the years.

And I don't believe the narrative that the abuses were caused by homosexual orientation in the clergy. I do not deny that there were abuses-- horrible abuses-- and that many were of a homosexual nature. But I think you miss the point that has been made several times in this thread: there is no evidence that priests, overall, committed statistically more abuse than the general population. There is evidence (not even evidence... it is widely known) that a higher percentage of Catholic priests are homosexual in orientation that the general population, but the vast majority of these priests did not abuse anyone-- and presumably maintained their vows of celibacy just as often as heterosexual priests.

I believe that the abuses that have been recently uncovered, and abuses like it, have been part of church history for centuries. Look at the situation in Ireland where thousands of infants were forcibly removed from unwed mothers by convent schools and their mothers were told it would be a grave mortal sin to try to contact their children. That is a scandal every bit as outrageous to the people of Ireland as an other, and it has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

I understand the desire for purification. But no human organization is ever going to be truly pure-- if such a thing were possible we would have no need for a Savior.

"Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh." Mt 18:7

There is no excuse for any sort of institutional cover up. None. If it turns out that Francis is unwilling to be open and forthcoming in the wake of scandals, I would support his decision to resign (if it comes to that).

In terms of his ecclesiastical work on "irregular situations," we are not going to see eye to eye. I understand your point. I have also know children driven from the Church and declared bastards because their parents divorced... To take a teenager, Catholic from birth, whose parents have divorced (due to a mother fleeing physical abuse, btw), declare her a bastard, and tell her she is unwelcome to the communion rail until she has retaken all her sacraments is abuse. This is precisely the type of situation Francis refers to when he says pastors must not be too "pharisaical." And don't tell me it's not a real thing, because I've seen it, and I've seen vulnerable, wounded people driven from the Church when they needed Her most. That is also abuse.

 

[Gregolian]

I'm not usually one to be on the wagon of "all religion is bad and must be done away with" because if it gives someone comfort at the end of their life or a loved one's life then I don't want to rip that away from them.

I'm not religious but I know reading this when a Mormon friend sent it to me after I put my dog to sleep gave me a ton of comfort:

Spoiler

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

https://www.rainbowsbridge.com/Poem.htm

Along with the idea that I'd get to see friends and family on the other side in good health, drink and eat and be merry with them provides me a small sense of comfort.



ALL THAT SAID... maybe it's time the Catholic Church embodies a Phoenix. Burn to the ground be reborn essentially.