Foreman Vs Ali, new impressions

[mozfonky]

How about using the all time great jab which was a god damn monster against everybody else? Foreman had a better jab than Liston and superior ringcraftmanship, aka better fighter, better record, etc.

great jab, problem was the same for liston and terrell, they couldn't hit him with it, ali slowed down but he'd still have been able to deal the foremans jab, liston probably was a lot faster than george, and if you asked ali, he'd say liston was better.

 

[spacetime]

great jab, problem was the same for liston and terrell, they couldn't hit him with it, ali slowed down but he'd still have been able to deal the foremans jab, liston probably was a lot faster than george, and if you asked ali, he'd say liston was better.

Foreman destroyed guys Ali had wars with. We don't know how Ali would have dealt with the jab since Foreman barely threw it, and certainly not systematically. It would have been a completely different fight. What we do know is that it was naive of Foreman thinking he could knock Ali out inside a few rounds. Even a pitbulls like Mike Tyson in the 80s bided his time when facing more difficult opposition.

 

[TheGreatA]

What surprised me is that Foreman used the exact same strategy Liston did, which everybody knew doesn't work, yet he goes ahead and repeats history.

I wouldn't say he fought the same fight that Liston did. The only time Liston was half as aggressive as Foreman, is the round when Ali was blinded. Other than that Liston fought at a measured pace, and basically tried to box with Ali. He just got lit up doing it, against a much faster guy who was constantly on the move.

Ironically Liston would have probably done a better job against the older, more flatfooted Ali. Atleast he would've found something to hit. Ali's chin was absolutely legendary in the 70s though, so it's not like it would've mattered.

He went from being incredibly difficult to hit, to being near-impossible to put down.

 

[spacetime]

I wouldn't say he fought the same fight that Liston did. The only time Liston was half as aggressive as Foreman, is the round when Ali was blinded. Other than that Liston fought at a measured pace, and basically tried to box with Ali. He just got lit up doing it.

Ironically Liston would have probably done a better job against the older, more flatfooted Ali. Atleast he would've found something to hit.

Liston was stalking just like Foreman, and he looked pretty bad. . Probably because it wasn't his style. Prime Liston was a pretty boring fighter from the matches I've see where he was evenly matched.

 

[XThe GreatestX]

i dunno if i agree that foreman had a better jab than liston during his first career.

i think george really got more snap in it during his comeback

but his jab during his first career could be really wild

 

[TheGreatA]

Liston was stalking just like Foreman, and he looked pretty bad. . Probably because it wasn't his style. Prime Liston was a pretty boring fighter from the matches I've see where he was evenly matched.

He wasn't boring against Williams, Patterson or Folley. Destroyed all of them within 3 rounds.

Liston tried to work the jab and land punches in a traditional sense, in the exchanges. Foreman just walked right through Ali's shots and started blasting him to the body with massive haymakers. Most of Ali-Foreman was fought in the clinches/phone booth distance.

They were two very different fights in my opinion and a part of that is that the young Ali could sustain his dancing routine for 15 rounds, instead of just 15 seconds of a round, like the 70s Ali. Liston could never really get set to punch, and he was never that good at cutting off the ring, unlike Foreman.

Liston patterned himself after Joe Louis and was more of a "follower" instead of a pressure fighter/swarmer who tries to cut off the ring and corner his opponents. Often times he fought better while backing up.

 

[spacetime]

He wasn't boring against Williams, Patterson or Folley. Destroyed all of them within 3 rounds.

Liston tried to work the jab and land punches in a traditional sense, in the exchanges. Foreman just walked right through Ali's shots and started blasting him to the body with massive haymakers.

They were two very different fights in my opinion and a part of that is that the young Ali could sustain his dancing routine for 15 rounds, instead of just 15 seconds of a round, like the 70s Ali. Liston could never really get set to punch, and he was never that good at cutting off the ring, unlike Foreman.

Liston patterned himself after Joe Louis and was more of a "follower" instead of a pressure fighter/swarmer who tries to cut off the ring. Often times he fought better while backing up.

Williams wasn't at his level. Patterson had the Tyson-Spinks syndrom. Watch Liston vs Macheen. Liston was a very boring fighter when evenly matched

 

[spacetime]

but his jab during his first career could be really wild

Never. And it was technically superior to Ali's.

 

[TheGreatA]

Williams wasn't at his level. Patterson had the Tyson-Spinks syndrom. Watch Liston vs Macheen. Liston was a very boring fighter when evenly matched

Williams drew with Machen, they were pretty much equally matched. Machen actually called Williams more dangerous than Liston because he was fast, as well as powerful.

They just had different styles. Machen could "spoil" anybody's night if he wanted to, he was a cagey and crafty boxer. Even an old, shot Machen made it pretty ugly with Joe Frazier. Shook Smokin' Joe to his boots with counter-punches.

Everybody's had a stinker at some point in their careers, Liston had very few of them. Foreman didn't look great against Gregorio Peralta either.

 

[spacetime]

Williams drew with Machen, they were pretty much equally matched. Machen actually called Williams more dangerous than Liston because he was fast, as well as powerful.

They just had different styles. Machen could "spoil" anybody's night if he wanted to, he was a cagey and crafty boxer. Even an old, shot Machen made it pretty ugly with Joe Frazier.

Everybody's had a stinker at some point in their careers, Liston had very few of them.

I never said anything about stinkers. I just pointed out that Liston tended to be boring and not overly aggressive when faced with real opposition. Williams chin wasn't very reliable to ever make it to the top, and Williams forced Liston to be aggressive

 

[TheGreatA]

I never said anything about stinkers. I just pointed out that Liston tended to be boring and not overly aggressive when faced with real opposition. Williams chin wasn't very reliable to ever make it to the top, and Williams forced Liston to be aggressive

That was my point though, Foreman was aggressive whereas Liston was not.

Liston fancied himself a boxer-puncher while Foreman knew what his bread and butter was. He was as pure a KO puncher as there has ever been, he was never really concerned with winning the fight on the cards.

 

[spacetime]

That was my point though, Foreman was aggressive whereas Liston was not.

And my point was that Liston was unusually aggressive against Ali and was second to the punch just about every exchange. Foreman was far more measured against Peralta than he was against Ali, which is ironic given that Peralta is a much worse boxer.

The fact is that Foreman simply could not control himself.

 

[SandaKicker]

Foreman just walked right through Ali's shots and started blasting him to the body with massive haymakers.

Not that I disagree with most of your post but I think it's one thing to walk through a guy's punches and another thing to be able to take them indefinitely for the rest of time.

You could say Diego Corrales walked through Mayweather's punches for the first 6 rounds, then in the 7th he suddenly went down. I don't think there's a person alive who could have taken the kind of right hands Ali was landing in the first 3 rounds for 15 rounds consistently.

 

[defjaam]

What surprised me is that Foreman used the exact same strategy Liston did, which everybody knew doesn't work, yet he goes ahead and repeats history.

Foreman had better feet than Liston and he used them succesfully to cut off the ring on Ali, hence why he went to the ropes.

What many don't know is that Foreman had Ali out on his feet a few times.
Even in round one you can see Foreman hitting Ali with a heavy blow to the midsection. When you watch it in slow motion you can see the pain in Ali's face.

Another time Foreman hit him with a punch that dehumanized Ali. Again, its easy to miss it when watching it with normal speed.

IMO it was a 100m race in which Ali sort of got lucky. Maybe Foreman's corner giving him deliberately wrong advise and him possibly being drugged made the difference, who knows.

I remember @sweetviolenturg telling how Angelo Dundee told him personally that a lot of things came together that worked to Ali's advantage, and that Foreman would have beaten Ali in a rematch.

 

[spacetime]

Foreman had better feet than Liston and he used them succesfully to cut off the ring on Ali, hence why he went to the ropes.

What many don't know is that Foreman had Ali out on his feet a few times.
Even in round one you can see Foreman hitting Ali with a heavy blow to the midsection. When you watch it in slow motion you can see the pain in Ali's face.

Another time Foreman hit him with a punch that dehumanized Ali. Again, its easy to miss it when watching it with normal speed.

IMO it was a 100m race in which Ali sort of got lucky. Maybe Foreman's corner giving him deliberately wrong advise and him possibly being drugged made the difference, who knows.

I remember @sweetviolenturg telling how Angelo Dundee told him personally that a lot of things came together that worked to Ali's advantage, and that Foreman would have beaten Ali in a rematch.

I don't like you but after posting this, all is forgotten.

 

[defjaam]

I don't like you but after posting this, all is forgotten.
View attachment 784327

chicken time, now I remember... Sorry that I forgot about that, but other things are going on in my life, which doesn't seem to be quite the case with your life... I can't memorize online things from months/years ago.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

If Foreman didnt stay down that round he was just going down later. He was completely out of juice for at least a round previous. I dont believe there was much left on his punches and he was stumbling all over.

Foreman was way, way too stubborn. It was almost comical how he refused to fight differently after the first 4-5 rounds of throwing the kitchen sink at Ali to little avail.

 

[spacetime]

chicken time, now I remember... Sorry that I forgot about that, but other things are going on in my life, which doesn't seem to be quite the case with your life... I can't memorize online things from months/years ago.

I don't have a lot going in my life so thank you for that. It was two days ago but who's counting.

 

[defjaam]

I don't have a lot going in my life so thank you for that. It was two days ago but who's counting.

I was talking about when people ganged up on you in the Standup Technique forum, and I was one of them... Gave you the nickname chicken time.

 

[spacetime]

I was talking about when people ganged up on you in the Standup Technique forum, and I was one of them... Gave you the nickname chicken time.

Oh and I didn't even know that. That's how important you are to me... But again, all is forgotten after that GIF. You made my day.