Force-Velocity relationship

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by spiderguarda, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    If this is what happens when you lift, then why lift if you want to go fast? I recall a S&C coach not allow his clients to lift heavy. He argued chances of injuries can harm performance or even allowing the athlete to compete, ligaments and tendons don’t recover faster than muscles, lifting heavy makes you slower. His approach was to use body weight and specificity. There are researchers like Loenneke on twitter who tweets if you want to run faster, train to run faster not lifting weights.

    There’s a trend where the argument is that you lift to armor proof your body.
     
  2. IndyCovaHart

    IndyCovaHart Gold Belt

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    ... and you stretch to spandex it.
     
  3. Phlog

    Phlog Dad Belt

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  4. NurseKnuckles

    NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

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    Lift to get stronger. Move fast to be faster. A stronger fast is better!
     
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  5. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    How do you move faster then? Let’s say you’re a sprinter. How do you sprint faster? Why is lifting going to help you run faster?

    So why lift to improve athletic performance at all?
     
  6. Legendary

    Legendary Ꮥµpǝɹnøʌɐ

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    Because Force x Velocity equals power. If your sport requires power production then yes.

    Its dependent on sport. In the case of sprinting, all of the best sprinters lift heavy.
     
  7. Sano

    Sano Red Belt

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    Do you have any reads that all the best sprinters lift heavy? As far as I've heard it's very mixed, most do S&C, few do a lot of heavy lifting and few do no lifting at all.

    There's a few things to unpack here.

    It is always a good idea to incorperate a specific and block periodized strength program for any athlete. There's a few distinct advantages, and this is without including heavy lifting necessarily. You can target weak points, you can work on muscles and tissue that are not addressed during your sport and most importantly, you can strengthen relevant tissue and prevent injuries. Add to that, you can increase power production, strength at specific lenghts and work on biomechanics that will transfer to your sport at the same time.

    How much time someone needs to spend on "strength training" (we are using an umbrella term for now that covers maximal eccentric and concentric strength, isometric strength and explosive strength) depends on the person. If someone has very good running technique but are injury prone or need relative strength in accordance to their mass, then working in the gym more might benefit. If someone is very strong in certain positions but have poor running technique, then they should forgo the gym a bit and work on the track a lot more.

    In regards to maximum strength in the compounds like squat, benchpress and deadlift specificly, there's a few drawbacks.
    1. There are diminishing returns. You reach a point where time spent is not worth it.
    2. Recovery can suffer.
    3. Hypertrophy can occur and lower relative strength to weight.
    4. Max strength increase at slow velocities and isometric strength does not necessarily transfer to sprinting speeds. Stronger (as in absolute strength) is not always faster.

    However, there are still benefits and they are very much worth improving if managed sensibly. Improving maximum strength and isometric strength can improve performance, tissue strength (prevent injuries), biomechanics and more.

    Now, you asked first of all how someone trains to be faster. The most important part in my opinion is actually working on the running drills, careful planning of runs and running mechanics. Sprinting itself will also improve your speed. That can be covered at another time. In regards to how doing S&C and "lifting" can help, there's a few things to consider.

    Moving something very fast requires motor efficiency and muscle co-ordination (which is basicly something you can train by doing countless of repetitions), less antagonist muscle activity at certain times, high neural drive and rate of force development (can somewhat be trained by lifting something heavy with intent, increasing max strength or lifting something light-moderately heavy at a high velocity), tendon stiffness (is improved by lifting and weight bearing exercise), the stretch shortening cycle/SSC (which is improved at very high speeds of tendon elongation and contraction as in sprinting itself, various jumps and doing track drills), rate coding as in the speed and sequencing of your nervous systems signalling to the muscles (mostly trained at high velocities with low-moderate loads), contractive velocity (high velocity at low-moderate loads), fiber types and mental acuity and motivation.

    Lifting heavy increase neural drive and motor unit recruitment in muscles, working at high velocities with low-moderate weights will increase rate coding and contractive velocity and working on balancing muscles, iso-eccentric strength and alignment can improve tissue and some performance parameters and reduce injuries. Another thing to add to this is that in order to be more sport-specific and have a greater transfer to the field, it's adviced to choose exercises that works at specific muscles lenghts, ranges of motion and directions of power. A few examples for sprinting would be:

    1. Exercises that overcomes inertia and produces powerful horizontal force vectors against resistance - as this is what happens during the acceleration phase
    2. Exercises that forcefully extends the hip at short ranges of motion - as this is what happens during pushoff in upright running
    3. Exercises that strenghten the hamstrings eccentricly - as the hamstring store very large amounts of eccentric energy during the late part of the swing phase - this also helps with injury prevention like fiber tears.
    4. Exercises that creates powerful hip flexion in large ranges of motion - as this is what happens during the leg lift
    5. Exercises that improve ground reactionary forces and the SSC, ie. less ground contact - as this generally increase force and improves time
    6. Exercises that incorperates triple extension - extension of the hips, knee and ankle, which is the basics of the kinetic pushoff of the lower body during sprinting.
    7. Exercises that uses a split stance - more transferable to sprinting
    8. Exercises that stabilises the core, improves core strength and upper body strength - as core stability during dynamic movements frees up the extremities and upper body push/pull strength also helps with running form and force, using the crossed anatomy slings which is a part of energy creation during walking and running.

    So that would be the gist of it. Without going into too much detail, exercise suggestions for the following could be:
    1. Sled drags, prowler pulls - vertical shins and torso, about 20-X+% of BW depending on the goal and block.
    2. Squat jumps, trapbar jumps, hip thrusters, kettlebell swings at medium loads (30-50% of 1RM) with high velocity and effort - Squat and DL/trapbar DL variations at heavy loads (70-90% 1RM).
    3. Nordic hamstring curls, glute ham raises, leg curls, romanian deadlifts, single leg deadlift variations at moderate to heavy load focusing on a controlled eccentric part
    4. Band resisted march variations, drills
    5. Besides the obvious fact that sprinting and sprinting/track drills work this a lot, then hurdles, depth jumps, bounding and so forth can be incorperated into a S&C program.
    6. Power cleans - at light to heavy loads at high velocity or intent depending on skill and block, also improves force production. Mid-thigh pulls with the same programming. Counter movement jumps, split stance jumps, skips.
    7. Bulgarian split squats moderate to heavy loads - can add a stepup here and torso lean to work on single leg force during the acceleration part of sprinting. Partial ROM Jefferson Deadlifts at medium loads with high velocity for power (30-50%) and heavy loads for max strength (70-90%). Stepups, other split stance variations at moderate to heavy loads.
    8. Various isometric and dynamic core exercises scaling up with moving extremities. Besides, the compound lifts like squat and DL obviously helps. Various bilateral and unilateral upper body push/pull exercises.

    That would be the gist of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  8. NurseKnuckles

    NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

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    I would have been much more brief than @Sano and a lot less tactful
     
  9. Phlog

    Phlog Dad Belt

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    Top quality post, buried on an average to poor thread.

    You're definitely one of my favourite poster. Probably number one of the knowledge droppers.
     
  10. Dan O

    Dan O Purple Belt

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    I hope this input goes heeded
     
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  11. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    Like what? Your troll response in your first response? If you can’t be bothered with a decent thought out response, I can’t believe you have it in you to match anything that Sano posted.

    An example is that weightlifting can increase tendon stiffness which may or can translate to improved sprint times. As Sano said there’s a lot to unpack.

    Much of what Sano, no disrespect to him, has been the argument of those defending the use of weightlifting to improve for example sprinting. You are aware of those that disagree right?
     
  12. NurseKnuckles

    NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

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    You seem like you already made up your mind so why bother posting if not to be a troll yourself? Sano gave a really good response.

    I'm not sure there are any credible coaches that would suggest no lifting for their speed athletes. MAYBE and that's a big MAYBE at the highest level where the strength is already developed and its a matter of fine tuning equipment and technique to get an edge, but to suggest that we will not lift to help improve speed, generally is ignorant.
     
  13. Sano

    Sano Red Belt

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    Much obliged my man, I really do appreciate that.

    I mean, you can certainly have a discussion about when, how and how much S&C is needed and if it's the optimal choice over more sprinting drills for the individual. I am confident that a good S&C program can improve your physical prowess and performance, but I'm not dogmatic about it and I don't necessarily think it's always the best option in every situation.

    Only thinking about weightlifting and powerlifting, specificly aiming for max strength, is reductionist in the way you can approach S&C. My post, just to make things clear, is not just picked out of thin air. It's based on the best available evidence at this point and the understanding of biomechanics, physiology and anatomy of sprinting.

    Many studies show improvements in sprint times with resistence based interventions, depending on the age and proficiency of the sprinters (1, 2). Certain power/force metrics like some jump variations and velocity speeds at certain loads have shown to correlate to an extent with sprint times (3, 4, 5), although that is not always the case (6). Peak force, rate of force development (RFD) and early stages of force during Isometric Mid-Thigh Pulls (IMTP) have lately been used a lot and shown a somewhat decent correlation to sprint times accross various sports like Rugby, Basketball and Soccer (7, 8, 9), and at least horizontal force production in sprinters, albeit it is not as clear cut (6). There's been some studies that show IMTP performance parameters also correlate somewhat with ability to change directions in college athletes and netball players, but that's a bit besides the point (10, 11). It's important to consider that these studies always has to be taken with a grain of salt and are performed in a vacuum under specific settings that often favor the outcomes. With that said, there seems to be a growing body of evidence suggesting a well planned S&C program improves sprint performances, not going into whether or not it's preferable to more sprint training and technique (which should obviously always be the main focus).

    In regards to what coaches think, while as far as I know it's a divisive topic, some elite coaches do support their athletes doing S&C. They have their own specific ways of doing things, which this article is a pretty interesting look into: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ion_of_resistance-based_training_Bolger_IJSSC

    If you really want to delve into the nerdy side of S&C for sprinting, Chris Beardsley has a very thorough article on the current literature and he also goes into detail about why resistance training adaptions are specific adaptions, which should be considered when making any S&C program for a sport:
    https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/strength-training-sprinting/
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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  14. AnotherOldGuy

    AnotherOldGuy Brown Belt

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    Its not often that I will say this, but </thread>
     
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  15. MandirigmaFit

    MandirigmaFit Blue Belt

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    Lifting heavy is relative. Lifting heavy for a powerlifter, will not be the same when compared to a sprinter.

    Sprinters need to be able to apply force into the ground, as well as absorb eccentric demand to create the next stride. If they weren't able to resist the ground reaction force, they would not be able to rebound from contact.

    Lifting heavy also helps mitigate injury. If you can't create force in certain ranges of motion, you will likely get injured when the demands are high.
     
  16. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    How do you know I’ve made up my mind? Credible coaches? What about in the past, coaches would tell you not to lift because it made you muscle bound and slow? You haven’t provided any evidence that strength training improves speed.
    Why is that?

    It’s as if you’ve accepted this a priori. I don’t.

    I see strength conditioning pushed onto runners. Why? One of the great marathoners Ryan Hall had to stop due to low testosterone and health issues and decided to lift. On social media, posters called him fat, that’s the mindset of runners. But he wasn’t. He gained weight because he didn’t need to compete and wanted in his words to get jacked and now advocates lifting for runners. My point is people allow their personal preferences color any objectivity.

    You’re also hedging what you wrote with maybes and generally.

    Marcelo Garcia does not lift because he doesn’t like to. He advocates like many to just practice more jiujitsu and pushing the pace to develop stamina. He’s a GOAT so he should know way more than you or some strength coaches as they’re not a GOAT. If Usain Bolt says no to lifting I guess he’s way more than strength coaches right?

    Focus on the question at hand. It’s kind of simple. But you would rather posting defensive troll posts. Why bother?

    I suppose twenty years from now, you can post the same thing but some new fad will be adopted by these credible coaches.

    I lift because I enjoy it. Whether or not I can adapt my training to improve athletic performance is an added bonus. Anecdotally I believe it does and can. But that’s not how science works right?
     
  17. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    I like Chris Beardsley. He’s pretty topical but didn’t you take him to task or someone on this forum went on a Facebook and questioned him about stat significance. Also he’s pretty accessible and I messaged him on social media to clarify what he meant and gave a decent response.

    Also glad you admit this is a divisive topic. I don’t know how many coaches believed too much weight lifting was bad for you because it made you slow or others that made you lift and believed it was crucial in sports like American football. I even came across an article for Kendo practitioners on the benefits of strength exercises.

    Not sure why the negative childish responses. Thanks for putting together a well thought out post.


    I know Jamie Jamieson had a extensive thread where he defended his approach. My takeaway which is simplistic is that he agrees with boxing coaches that running is fundamental.
     
  18. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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    Here’s an article by three exercise specialists discussing one study and its application to activities such as sprinting.

    https://theconversation.com/athletes-youre-doing-weight-training-all-wrong-62794

    Force x Velocity equals power. Ok. But what does the Force Velocity relationship state? Both are inversely related.

    Do you get my point? If this simple relationship is true then how do you increase power? All best sprinters do not lift heavy. The article argues perhaps lifting heavy is not optimal and perhaps lifting light is preferable.

    Lift light and you can move faster. Lift heavy and you move slower. Yes, Force production is important as in sprinting you want to push off and my understanding is that the least contact time by the feet with the ground is preferable but I think Chris Beardsley argued that maximum contraction force production takes much longer so what are the implications or does it matter?

    These conclusions also are applicable to the striking arts.
     
  19. Sano

    Sano Red Belt

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    He didn't provide any evidence that strength training can increase speed, under some circumstances, but I did. Well, more accurately would be sprinting speed in this case. Power.

    I think you might be talking about when miauo had a disagreement with Beardsley on his facebook. I have had a few comments back and forth with him (Beardsley), and been a little critical about his selection criteria of studies and the conclusions he makes, but never written about it on here I think. I think he jumps the gun a bit at times in his infographs, and can be a tad narrow focused, but he's always willing to engange in conversation. Also when you read his bigger articles he's better at putting things into context and he is less definitive, which is always the mark of a good researcher. He has provided so much excellent stuff over the years. In the end, it's always up to the reader to be critical of what they read, no matter which source.

    Yeah that article is pretty weak sauce. I agree with the overall sentiment, that max strength is less important than other attributes, and I've said as much. The article left a lot to be desired though. The study they used was interesting, and it doesn't surprise me that light-moderate loads can give simular hypertrophy if done to failure, and even strength to some degree. However, there are a few caveats. Exercises selection, training protocol, strength differential and lifting to failure. Both groups saw equal hypertrophy and hormonal measures, which makes sense. In regards to strength the study says this: "Additionally, when participants were tested periodically for maximal strength (i.e., essentially being allowed to practice their 1RM), the increases in muscular strength were not significantly different between groups. The exception was bench press 1RM, which increased to a greater extent in the LR (low rep) group."

    So there was a difference in strength increase in the heavy load group in the benchpress, and the benchpress was also the only compound they used. If they had used deadlifts and squats, maybe there would have been a difference there too. The other thing to note is with the protocol. The heavy load group were using 70-90% in the 8-12 rep range. They deloaded or loaded 5-10% each time to make sure to hit that rep range while hitting failure. If they had used 1-5 reps instead, they could have loaded heavier and the results might have been different again. We don't know. We can't draw overarching conclusions from this single study without looking at the rest of the literature. Even then, a study is not always the real world.

    Lastly, there is the issue with lifting to failure. The article you posted itself says that lifting to failure is an issue for sprinters in regards to recovery and being ready for the track. Therefor, they don't bring any conclusions of the useability of the study, they just point out that strength can be the same using low or high loads (which is them being sloppy with their reading of the study as we just went through).

    You can read it for yourself btw: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4967245/

    You need to provide evidence of the claim that all the best sprinters do not lift heavy. I'm sure it's not the primary focus, even for those that do, but to say that none of them lift heavy? You are also simplifying the relationship of the force velocity curve, which in itself is a simplification. The curve can be raised and scewed, and it's not necessarily a smooth curve in reality.

    I say this as someone who's not a big fan of powerlifting style training for sports at all.
     
  20. spiderguarda

    spiderguarda Orange Belt

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