Food for Thought

[infinitywarrior]

Found these videos, they seems to explain more what i was trying to get at in my thread "the golden age of the shotgun". Zero and Roaming before you start flaming please watch the videos. They are not pro shotgun videos, i've changed my stance a bit and through the posts of others adjusted my view. Thought these videos brought up some good points.

 

[Jory]

Found this video, this seems to explain more what i was trying to get at in my thread " the golden age of the shotgun". Before Zero and Roaming start flaming, watch the video. Its not a pro shotgun video, i've changed my stance a bit and through the posts of others adjusted my view. Thought this video brought up some good points.



Another interesting video:

When I was 12, during a particularly wet and duckless day in the blind with my dad, he saw how bored I was and we decided to just start shooting stuff: an old petrified piling, a 2x4 sticking out of the mud, probably some other stuff that was illegal.

I remember the awe I felt at how 20 gauge bird shot turned that 2x4 into splinters at 20 feet.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Everyone knows what buck shot can do... An AR is still a great home defense weapon and has many uses.

Also if you ever had a hostage situation that you needed to be 100% accurate with a shot, using an AR you could easily place a round in someones head without hitting the hostage at ranges inside a house. You could not do that with a shotgun and that is an extremely scary shot with a pistol.

That second video is so amazingly ridiculous it isn't even funny. The chick somehow managed to fire 5 rounds of 12ga 00 buck in 3.59 seconds... so .72 seconds per shot while transitioning with a heavy recoil gun. But with the low recoil AR she can somehow only fire 1 round per 1.33 seconds... Stupid.

A good shooter with an AR could have put 3 rounds into each of those targets in 5 seconds or less. People that are highly efficient shooters could have done 5 rounds into each in 5 seconds or less.

I don't quite get the 5 rounds either 1 well placed shot with maybe 1-2 follow ups to make sure would be good.

Good home defense rounds will not over penetrate and deliver plenty damage contrary to the belief of some. http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/

click on a round and then click on gelatin on the table.

Edited for lazy people

^55 grain tap urban, 5" cavity, max cavity size is at 5"

here is a 60 grain, 5.25" cavity, max cavity is at 6.25"

 

[infinitywarrior]

Everyone knows what buck shot can do... An AR is still a great home defense weapon and has many uses.

Also if you ever had a hostage situation that you needed to be 100% accurate with a shot, using an AR you could easily place a round in someones head without hitting the hostage at ranges inside a house. You could not do that with a shotgun and that is an extremely scary shot with a pistol.

That second video is so amazingly ridiculous it isn't even funny. The chick somehow managed to fire 5 rounds of 12ga 00 buck in 3.59 seconds... so .72 seconds per shot while transitioning with a heavy recoil gun. But with the low recoil AR she can somehow only fire 1 round per 1.33 seconds... Stupid.

A good shooter with an AR could have put 3 rounds into each of those targets in 5 seconds or less. People that are highly efficient shooters could have done 5 rounds into each in 5 seconds or less.

I don't quite get the 5 rounds either 1 well placed shot with maybe 1-2 follow ups to make sure would be good.

Good home defense rounds will not over penetrate and deliver plenty damage contrary to belief. http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/

click on a round and then click on gelatin on the table.

Edited for lazy people

^55 grain tap urban, 5" cavity, max cavity size is at 5"

here is a 60 grain, 5.25" cavity, max cavity is at 6.25"

Yeah, for some reason they used a different shooter for the shotgun, the first chick fired pretty slow with the AR. Good job on info provided.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Yeah, for some reason they used a different shooter for the shotgun, the first chick fired pretty slow with the AR. Good job on info provided.

thanks, the 40 grain is pretty brutal, it completely fragments nothing is left.

For those who didn't click on the link they also show shots into ballistic gel through plywood, glass, drywall, steel and just the plain gelatin for each round.

 

[Roaming East]

Im not jumping anybodies case about shotguns being good for home security. For the average person i think a shotgun is a better choice than owning just a pistol or carbine because of its versatility.

I just dont think shotguns are better than rifles in a more...offensive or proactive defensive role. Intruder busting into my house at o dark thirty is either going to have to deal with my Sig or my Mossie 590. But if i expected a bad hurricane was going to make life here difficult for a few weeks, my Noveske would be my go to arm.

 

[infinitywarrior]

Im not jumping anybodies case about shotguns being good for home security. For the average person i think a shotgun is a better choice than owning just a pistol or carbine because of its versatility.

I just dont think shotguns are better than rifles in a more...offensive or proactive defensive role. Intruder busting into my house at o dark thirty is either going to have to deal with my Sig or my Mossie 590. But if i expected a bad hurricane was going to make life here difficult for a few weeks, my Noveske would be my go to arm.

That makes sense, in a Hurricane Katrina scenario i would definitely love to have an AR in addition to my shotgun. When the whole city is virtually without the rule of law for a time and you may be forced to venture out onto sprawling debris littered streets, the AR certainly would seem to be the gun of choice if shit went down. Never heard of noveske prior to now, just checked out the website,....looks like a quality gun.

 

[infinitywarrior]

When I was 12, during a particularly wet and duckless day in the blind with my dad, he saw how bored I was and we decided to just start shooting stuff: an old petrified piling, a 2x4 sticking out of the mud, probably some other stuff that was illegal.

I remember the awe I felt at how 20 gauge bird shot turned that 2x4 into splinters at 20 feet.

Gotta love that kinda nostalgia from childhood. My grandpa taught me alot on the trails behind their house. Knowledge i carry with me to this day. He never happened to own firearms but i have alot of backwoodsman style knowledge that he passed on to me. I remember being blown away when he showed me spruce gum as a kid. Used to call it nature's chewing gum lol.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

To add to what I said earlier

This is to people who think the .223 is a weak round for home defense.

If you look at the ballistics of good home defense rounds in .223, lets use the Hornady tap urban 55 and 60gr as an example(you can see this in the link), it delivers over 1000ft lbs of energy from a standard 16" barrel at ranges inside a house.

(60gr.) So 1000+ ft lbs of energy with 10" of penetration, 5.25" max cavity, the max cavity at 6.25", with lots of fragments tearing tissue and organs up = a pretty devastating round.

As a comparison a good HD .45 round will do close to 500 ft lbs of energy and a 9mm will do close to 400 ft lbs.

Oh and the .223 will not over penetrate. The .45 and 9mm will penetrate further and 00 buck is probably going to go through the whole house/a lot of shit.

^ Noveske is the shit. Best barrels and amazing quality of everything.

 

[Ash E Larry]

In a perfect world you have both a shotgun and an AR in your home, ready to use. All situations are different, each one can be used for that particular situation. Good videos, thanks for posting TS.

 

[Protectandserve]

The boxotruth is a great website for debunking many of the myths surrounding shotguns and rifles for home defense. Does a great job of showing spread of various shots and penetration of rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds. Highly recommend it for informational reading.

Very rarely do I grab the shotgun vs the AR from my squad car when I need extra firepower. Only real advantage I can see the shorgun having is if I have to dynamically something like a locked door or gate but that is almost never the case.

 

[infinitywarrior]

Thanks for the constructive input folks. Good stuff, the ballistics info is interesting, i love the videos by tntoutdoors9 for his ballistics gel testing.

 

[infinitywarrior]

On a side note, i always wondered why more wasn't done with the rifled shotgun barrels. I understand that because of no rifling the average barrel is really only good for shot and rifled slugs. But with the versatility of shotguns i think their is more potential. For example, i can buy a rifled barrel for my Maverick for about $160. I can screw that sucker in, in less than 2 mins. Of course this is meant for slug accuracy at longer distances and mostly hunting not home defence in those states where you can't hunt with rifles. My point is that if the shotgun is provided with a rifled barrel why not go further than a sabot slug. Couldn't you design a projectile in a shotgun shell with various performance attributes? If seated and packed right couldn't you make varying type of ammo for a rifled shotgun barrel thus increasing its versatility. I'm no expert but i was always curious about this. I figured they might be starting down this thought process with the PDX-1

Rifled Slug Barrel $163

Good for Moss 500 or Mav 88

 

[Stoic1]

My personal opinion on this is slightly biased. In the military we see ball ammo go right through people without fragmentation or cavitation neccessary to stop them. And quite honestly, that is what 95% of the civilians I know have stockpiled and loaded in mags - because the AR15 is an expensive beast to shoot.

That light fast round is good for a lot of things, but penetration through hard objects is not one of them. But 30 of them delivered in rapid succession is pretty fucking awesome.

Shotguns are usually set up with a mix between slugs and buckshot. Buckshot does some serious damage at short ranges but loses a *LOT* of versatility to the rifle round. Couple that with serious ammunition capacity limitations it isn't going to be very good past about 30 seconds into a gunfight. Add the penetration and range of slugs and you begin to see more versatility but you still lose that sustainability.

What it will always boil down to is training and practice.

I guarantee that having shot 1,000+ shells through your pop's old Remington 1100 while hunting is going to beat a couch-warrior who has gone to the range 3 or 4 times with his AR15. And that is the reality that people don't want to admit.

Now in a perfect world a rifleman with a breaching partner can provide a lot of firepower with a lot of versatility. Provided of course...practice.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

I would have liked to see that vmax at around 10 yards because at 200 it lost probably 600+ ft per second 350+ ft lbs of energy. It still looked pretty devastating even at that range.

As to what stoic said

I would choose anyone with training / extensive practice with pretty much any firearm vs a couch warrior with an ar.

Yeah the rounds I have 1000's of are 62gr m855 but I do have a couple hundred rounds of Hornady tap for sd and coyote hunting. That couple hundred rounds cost as much as 1000 of the lake city. I also have my fn shotgun loaded up with 00 buck. I'm not sure what I would grab if I ever had to use one for hd.

 

[Ash E Larry]

On a side note, i always wondered why more wasn't done with the rifled shotgun barrels. I understand that because of no rifling the average barrel is really only good for shot and rifled slugs. But with the versatility of shotguns i think their is more potential. For example, i can buy a rifled barrel for my Maverick for about $160. I can screw that sucker in, in less than 2 mins. Of course this is meant for slug accuracy at longer distances and mostly hunting not home defence in those states where you can't hunt with rifles. My point is that if the shotgun is provided with a rifled barrel why not go further than a sabot slug. Couldn't you design a projectile in a shotgun shell with various performance attributes? If seated and packed right couldn't you make varying type of ammo for a rifled shotgun barrel thus increasing its versatility. I'm no expert but i was always curious about this. I figured they might be starting down this thought process with the PDX-1

Rifled Slug Barrel $163

Good for Moss 500 or Mav 88

I too have a Mav 88 and you're saying these barrels are available for them?

 

[infinitywarrior]

I too have a Mav 88 and you're saying these barrels are available for them?

Yep, my dealer will order them for me, but Maverick also has a website to order.

http://www.maverickarms.com/pages/barrels.htm

They are listed in the second column.

 

[Ash E Larry]

Yep, my dealer will order them for me, but Maverick also has a website to order.

http://www.maverickarms.com/pages/barrels.htm

They are listed in the second column.

Sweet, and thanks for the info!

 

[infinitywarrior]

Sweet, and thanks for the info!

Np, happy to share any info i have.

 

[hunto]

The one time I really thought I had an intruder, I thought someone was trying to kick in a panel on my garage door- it turned out to be a broken tree branch- but I ran straight to my AK and grabbed it. I knew it had 30 rounds in it, each one a fight stopper, and it won't jam. In the unlikely event I have to reload, it's fast. I didn't think about any of that; I simply ran straight to it.

Much as I like 12 ga, and as devastating as the 00 buck is, home invaders and robbers seem work in teams more often now. I'd rather a 30 rd semi-auto than a 5+1 (or even 7+1) shotgun.