Flexibility's relationship to Squat Depth

[RedRover]

For most of you who don't follow my log, here's a brief background.

-Started SS in April(~3 months ago), had never really squatted properly before that.
-Waited a long time to get a camera and post form videos, by the time I did I realized my depth wasn't quite there(and the weights were too heavy).
-Injured my back at work and Squats/Deads disallowed it to heal, stopped doing back squats ~3 weeks ago.

So now, my back is gradually feeling better, and I'm trying to get back into squats, this time with proper form and depth. I tried front squats today for the first time(with cross over grip, and "regular" grip) because I figured there is less ROM with the back so this would be a good stepping stone back into regular squats.
-I got to a working weight which should have been easy, and had an issue with depth. Didn't go as low as I should have, and due to awkward discomfort abandoned the set(s).

Here is where my question/comments come in: How does flexibility affect a persons squat depth?
-I have very flexible hips/legs/back. I can do the splits sideways or straight, and can throw very high kicks. When I do the "butterfly" stretch I can put my heels against my ass and my knees flat on the ground.
-I've been told, read, and saw on technique videos that a person should "feel" the bottom of the ROM on squats and know when to come up.

Here's the problem with that: Today when I had the bar in front squat position I tried to "feel" the "natural bottom" of the movement. With my feet just wider than shoulder width and at a ~40degree angle outwards, the bottom of the motion is FUCKING low for me. My ass is only about 2 inches from touching the ground, and my legs(at the hip) are 4-6 inches past parallel. I have never seen someone in this position before on any technique video, and I assume that's because they aren't as flexible as me, or that I must really not understand what "Feeling the bottom" is. I put the empty bar on my traps just to see where the bottom was for me on regular squats, the same thing happened: ass barely off the ground, legs WAY past parallel(further than I have ever seen with anyone).

Another problem with this is: I am incredibly weak at this low point. If I go this low in a back squat 100lbs is difficult, compared to doing well into the 200's at just parallel.

So what should I do when I start doing squats again? Should I try getting this depth? Should I just find where past parallel is and train myself to get to that point? I'm really at a loss at what I should be doing, and frustrated with squatting technique!

 

[JasonMun]

I've read different things everywhere, honestly. Some people swear by ATG (ass to grass) squatting, others say parallel, or just below.

Personally I dont have the flexibility for anything beyond parallel, so that's what I do

 

[Tosa]

Squat as low as you can without any lower back rounding. The exception being if you were planning to compete in powerlifting, then you might do some work trying to go just past parallel. If this means using less weight, it's because the larger ROM has you training joint angles that you haven't trained signifcantly with the shallower squats. So train them.

 

[JauntyAngle]

How much forward lean do you have? I am pretty flexible, but if I use the amount of forward lean that is usually recommended for low bar (as in the picture), it usually stops me from going super deep. It's not my flexibility that cuts it off, it is my torso coming into contact with the tops of my thighs.

Next time you record your squat, you might want to check that you are getting the right amount of forward lean (i.e. enough to get the bar over the mid-point of the foot). The extra forward lean you can get with low bar means you can use your hams and glutes more, and at least when I am doing it, getting out of the hole requires me to use my hams and glutes a lot.

I could be wrong here, but that level of depth is much more common with high-bar- see best squat picture ever:

 

[Tosa]

I am pretty flexible, but if I use the amount of forward lean that is usually recommended for low bar (as in the picture), it usually stops me from going super deep. It's not my flexibility that cuts it off, it is my torso coming into contact with the tops of my thighs.

That would happen to me until I started pushing my knees out more.

 

[RedRover]

JA, I didn't try the low bar variation, just High bar and front squat. The general plane of my upper leg was probably 25-30 degrees past parallel. It's incredibly uncomfortable to go that low, everything feels like it's in a strain. Unfortunately though, when the weight is on my shoulders, that's where it takes me(if i try for full RoM) The man in your photo is a couple inches higher than I am.
I think what is contributing to this is I am built very weird. I have wide hips, much wider than most guys I know (it's kind of lame/not a typical desirable build), small waist, and my torso is relatively narrow/small. This allows my upper body to fit between my legs (when they're out at an angle) and not obstruct the movement like a wide bodied man would have against his relatively narrow hips. I could get pics if this is confusing/ you don't believe me.

Also, TOSA - I am not completely enlightened on what exactly back rounding is, or at what point it begins to be noticeable/have a negative affect.

 

[Telf]

I could be wrong here, but that level of depth is much more common with high-bar- see best squat picture ever:

[/QUOTE]

High Bar is the shit! I've been doing a Low Bar experiment for a little over 6 months. Think I'm going to switch back!

To the OP - I think Tosa is probably onto something as regards back rounding. Are you sure that you are maintaining lower back tightness at these extreme depths?

 

[Tosa]

Also, TOSA - I am not completely enlightened on what exactly back rounding is, or at what point it begins to be noticeable/have a negative affect.

Take video of yourself squatting from the side. Your lower back should stay neutral or slightly arched throughout the ROM. If you can't maintain a neutral lower back, despite your best attempts at using proper technique, then it's not a good idea to squat that deep (for now).

The issue is that (1) While the lower back is very good at supporting loads when it's in a neutral or slightly arched position, when it rounds the stress on the spinal discs is uneven, and greatly increases the risk of eventual injury. (2) A rounded lower back isn't in as strong a position as a neutral lower back.

 

[Aleks Sytsevich]

Back rounding refers to losing the natural arch of the lumbar (and sometimes even thorasic) spine.

Back flexion is not conducive to a healthy back (especially if that back has a few hundred lbs to support).

Edit: Tosa beat me to it.

 

[PowerHungry]

Asian squats. Best thing for getting comfortable in the bottom position.

 

[Brad Morris]

The position of the spine througout the squat but especially at the bottom of the lift is important.

If you are not tail tucking and/or rounding your lower back, and if the weight is over your hips and heels as opposed to being forward over your knees and toes then you can squat as low as you feel comfortable.

For some people (myself included) squatting as low as personal flexibility will allow can lead to poor form. I can hold good form and spine position until the last 2 inches of my squat at that point I start to slightly loose form.

 

[RedRover]

So what I gather is flexibility is a detriment to squatting capability because the body allows naturally "bad" position at the bottom of the rep. Having less flexible legs / hips would mean maintaining tighter hamstrings/glutes throughout the exercise creating a shorter range of motion. Also that the athlete would have effortless tension at the bottom as compared to a more flexible person?

I understand the concept of back rounding, I just have a hard time knowing exactly when it becomes a problem. If leaned over, when the back is a straight edge is that too late?, or must there be a convex curvature to be considered rounding?

 

[Aleks Sytsevich]

So what I gather is flexibility is a detriment to squatting capability because the body allows naturally "bad" position at the bottom of the rep. Having less flexible legs / hips would mean maintaining tighter hamstrings/glutes throughout the exercise creating a shorter range of motion. Also that the athlete would have effortless tension at the bottom as compared to a more flexible person?

I understand the concept of back rounding, I just have a hard time knowing exactly when it becomes a problem. If leaned over, when the back is a straight edge is that too late?, or must there be a convex curvature to be considered rounding?

More flexibilty allows for a greater ROM, and lessens the natural tendecy for the ass to drop and cause the back to round. Greater ROM allows more muscles to be activated during the movement.

Do you squat LB or HB? LB creates much more tension on the hips, glutes and hams due to the sitting back and less upright posture.

SquatRx has a video that shows what tailtucking looks like.

 

[fatcat669]

if you are two inches above the ground i doubt you are staying tight.


this is my experience and not gospel so watch your own form videos:

if you stay tight everywhere and squat as deep as you can go you will reach a point where the muscles involved will lengthen to a point where you will feel and as a result know that you've reached your limit and you will get that energy helping you out of the hole. its like when you squat with weight versus empty bar with good form. i think for most people if you stay tight everywhere (like you should),with the empty bar you won't get as much depth unless you have olympic level flexibility and control. i really don't know where i'm going with this. but i felt i should say it. i could be FOS

when im tight my "bottom" is higher than when I let my tail tuck. Your depth staying tight will get better over time, especially when you add weight and stay tight, as it will force you lower by stretching your muscles even more. this is where it is important to have good control of your tightness as certain muscles will be tugging on other muscles and when one gives you lose tightness.