first handgun

[CrankJohnson]

nothing beats a shotgun for home defense, period.

I'll beat your ass for some home defense, how about that shit.

 

[jlagman]

Just wondering why someone would need to carry a .45 for personal defense. . . people act like you can walk through 9mm bullets or something.

Modern technology has made the stopping power of defensive 9mm loads more than adequate for self defense applications while still retaining size efficiency and higher magazine capacities, laws notwithstanding. That being said, some people prefer shooting a bigger, heavier, more expensive bullet because they're "old school" or whatever, and that's cool too.

outbeforecalibrepissingcontest.

 

[D Train]

Nub question here.:

9mm bullet is perfectly capable of piercing a human skull right?

Yes. Thoroughly capable.

 

[00 Buck]

Nub question here.:

9mm bullet is perfectly capable of piercing a human skull right?

Yes and no. Depends on shot placement. I've read that the cranial vault is hard to penetrate with an angled shot.

 

[fittafeis]

as far as the caliber goes, anything over 9mm is fine.
Rob leatham who is a many time world champ IPSC shooter(with a 1911 in 45 acp) personally carries a 9mm for his CCW gun.

Go with your preferences, try different guns. What i thought i'd want for my first gun is far from what i'd get today after many many guns and several tens of thousands of ammunition and practice and competitions later.



As for the rest of advice, i highly suggest you shoot some competition, either IDPA or ipsc. Just do one local casual get-together competition to realize how shitty of a shot you really are, it will probably motivate you to get a whole lot better.

 

[Ralff]

Modern technology has made the stopping power of defensive 9mm loads more than adequate for self defense applications while still retaining size efficiency and higher magazine capacities, laws notwithstanding. That being said, some people prefer shooting a bigger, heavier, more expensive bullet because they're "old school" or whatever, and that's cool too.

outbeforecalibrepissingcontest.

Agree.

Would I rather have a COM hit with a 45 over a 9? Sure. I'd also take a 44 mag hit over 9mm for that matter, but I'm not going to start packing one.

 

[Symbiose**]

I'll beat your ass for some home defense, how about that shit.

If you can walk through a couple of rounds of 00 buckshot and manage to reach me, you're more than welcome to beat my ass.

 

[Symbiose**]

In your opinion. Many people agree with you, many don't.

I can't see any other weapon that is more effective than a shotgun with buckshot for home defense. I'm not talking about a long ass hunting shotgun, but a smaller one.

1- unmatched stopping power (you dont have to hit vital organs, shoulder or leg will work)
2- follow up shot is fast (pump)
3- virtually no jams (pump)
4- intimidating factor (pump action cock sound)
5- hits a larger area than a single bullet

 

[Byron Pechorin]

Every handgun thread turns into a "shotguns are the best home defense weapons" thread lol. I agree.

 

[Gregolian]

I got a Springfield Arms 1911 for my first gun. .45 which I honestly like, it's an old school type weapon.

Also, to people talking about how 9mm can also kill people. Well, you can kill a man with a .22 magnum bullet if you are a good enough shot too. For a common person shooting with a 9mm it will hurt them and possibly kill them. One .45 will put them on their ass and leave them there.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

 

[Urban]

an ar15 is a stupid choice for home defense. The risk of over-penetration with a .223 (5.56) round is HUGE. Interior (and often exterior walls) are not sufficient to lessen lethality in the next room... hell, interior walls and a fridge won't sufficiently slow the bullet. While it's unlikely an ar round will hit something since it's so small, does she really want to risk hitting one of her kids in the next room cause it went through the bad guy or she missed him all together.

AR is a stupid choice. Get her used to the shotgun (with a nice cushy limbsaver recoil pad) and she'd be FAR better off. even putting her on a 20guage would be better than the AR.

 

[fittafeis]

an ar15 is a stupid choice for home defense.

with respect, this is plain wrong. It would depend entirely on the situation, and overpenetration is more or less unavoidable (as almost any caliber of gun/shot gun will penetrate enough to kill someone in the other room)

The risk of over-penetration with a .223 (5.56) round is HUGE. Interior (and often exterior walls) are not sufficient to lessen lethality in the next room...

Thats true, but same goes for 9mm, 45acp, 00 buck etc.

While it's unlikely an ar round will hit something since it's so small, does she really want to risk hitting one of her kids in the next room cause it went through the bad guy or she missed him all together.

Not sure if serious. You really think an ar round (5.56mm) has a significantly lower chance of hitting someone than a 9mm-12mm round simply because its 5-6mm's thinner? Please tell me i misunderstood this.

And if the round not penetrating into the next room at all is a mandatory criterea then i suggest either getting lead plates in the walls. Anything that can't penetrate a normal wall is not something i'd consider effective for self defense.

AR is a stupid choice. Get her used to the shotgun (with a nice cushy limbsaver recoil pad) and she'd be FAR better off. even putting her on a 20guage would be better than the AR.

I respectfully disagree.
While the AR does have some drawbacks in the penetration department, it would be more relevant to the neighbors etc as any gun that is remotely fit for home defense in terms of stopping power is definitely going to be penetrating pretty much every wall(unless some special heavy duty wall) you have in your home anyways.

The benefits of an AR15, and especially for a woman are:
Tons of rounds,
-That can be fired super fast
with low recoil

The drawbacks of a shotgun are all of these elements.
Low(er) shell count
Slower follow up shot speed
higher recoil

That is my 0.02. Please don't ban me.

For more info on penetration of ammunition, check out
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
(basically shotgun is the lowest penetrator usually, but we're still talking 6-9 sheets of wall before pellets slow down. In summary, go with what is comfortable. If penetration of walls is unacceptable, install lead/steel plated walls.

In swat practicing clearing of homes etc, I've used both shotguns and a 16 inch ar15. Personally i would hands down go with the AR if given the choice. If chosing between a shotgun and a handgun of choice, i'd go with a handgun.

 

[ChuckSteak]

I can't see any other weapon that is more effective than a shotgun with buckshot for home defense. I'm not talking about a long ass hunting shotgun, but a smaller one.

Oh, I agree a shotgun with buckshot is very effective for home defense. But the issue is opinion. A shotgun is not the best for everyone. Just like there is not one handgun for everyone. Or rifle. Or etc.... I think you get the picture. And even a good defensive shotgun has it's challenges when wielding it inside of close quarters like a regular house. A shotgun can be used very effectively for sure. But it is just not the be all, end all toll for the job of home defense. There just isn't a be all, end all tool for that job.

1- unmatched stopping power (you dont have to hit vital organs, shoulder or leg will work)

What happens if an intruder is hit in the shoulder or leg with a 9mm, .38, .357, .45 etc....? Nothing right? Of course shot placement matters a bit more with a rifle or handgun because the shot gun has it designed purpose of having a spread of pellets. I agree, that the pattern and pellets of a shotgun are VERY desirable for a job like home defense.

2- follow up shot is fast (pump)

Fast? Sure. Do you think you can dump 8 rounds from a pump gauge faster then 8 rounds from a semi-auto pistol? Not trying to be a complete dick here, but a semi-auto handgun "shoots faster". I don't think that's as vital as accurate (shotgun or handgun) but I'm simply stating that if you are using follow up shot speed as one of the criteria then a pump shotgun isn't at the top of the list. Now a semi-auto gauge????? :icon_chee

3- virtually no jams (pump)

Revolvers don't jam much either. Same as above. Using this as criteria doesn't make the shotgun the "best" choice for everyone. It's a hell of a good choice for sure. Again, just not the be all, end all ONLY choice as many claim.

4- intimidating factor (pump action cock sound)

To quote Travis Haley:

"I don't use a pump to scare somebody...I use a pump to shoot somebody."

Again, not to be a dick, but tell me how this works? You hear a noise at night and you think someone is in your house. You grab your shotgun. Do you go out of your bedroom, shotgun in hand, without a shell in the chamber? Do you wait until you see the intruder before you rack a round? Just to make sure the intruder knows you are there?

Myself, I wouldn't walk out of my bedroom without racking a round. And from my bedroom I'm not going to rack it at the door so the bad guys know I'm coming. Unless I'm missing something, please explain.

5- hits a larger area than a single bullet

Absolutely 110% without a doubt true. This is why shotguns are desirable for home defense. I'm not, nor ever have, said the shotgun is a bad choice for home defense. I just believe that they are not the best choice for everyone. I myself have a plan of action if someone breaks into my house. My wife gets on her cell to 911, I get the gunS. She gets the gauge and holds down the "fort" (our bedroom). I get my pistol and I go out of the bedroom and gather the kids and get them to our room. I use the pistol because it's easier to hold the pistol in one hand and a child in the other while I am walking them back to the "fort". And it is THAT right there why I will never claim one tool is better for this particular job then another. Because everyone's situation is different. Sometimes a shot MAY be the best option, but isn't ALWAYS.

As a side note, I watched a show about using bird shot as a home defense round. It was interesting.

 

[ChuckSteak]

an ar15 is a stupid choice for home defense. The risk of over-penetration with a .223 (5.56) round is HUGE. Interior (and often exterior walls) are not sufficient to lessen lethality in the next room... hell, interior walls and a fridge won't sufficiently slow the bullet. While it's unlikely an ar round will hit something since it's so small, does she really want to risk hitting one of her kids in the next room cause it went through the bad guy or she missed him all together.

AR is a stupid choice. Get her used to the shotgun (with a nice cushy limbsaver recoil pad) and she'd be FAR better off. even putting her on a 20guage would be better than the AR.

While many people will debate which is the best firearm for defense, I will say one thing is for sure...NO firearm is the only actual stupid choice.

 

[walkenonwater]

First off, no disrespect to the poster, but it is highly unlikely that you will buy a gun used in a crime at a used gun shop. To sell a gun to a store you need to have a title which has your information and the information of whoever you bought your gun from. Also, on that title in the NSN, and all other information about the gun, round size barrel size, etc. This is for the very reason of people using guns in crimes and trying to sell them. No gun store will buy a gun with a scratched off serial number, and with good reason.

Second, whoever recommended the ar-15, here a few pros and cons of the weapon, or rifle. First, to whoever doesn't know, the AR-15 is the civilian model of an M-16, the one time standard military weapon. It is an upgrade of the earlier AR-10 model, and used .223, or 5.56 mm rounds. It is easy to fit an ACOG or red-dot sight onto it. The weapon is extremely easy to take apart and clean, and it is the easiest thing in the world to shoot and determine where and how to take off the safety.

However, I would never recommend it to be used as a home defense weapon. I mean come on, I understand it would be effective in a sense, but definately overkill. You might as well recommended that he/she needs to buy the m-203 grenade launcher attachment. The AR-15 is an assault rifle, best used on the battlefield, or a theraputic day at the range. Prone supported with this weapon even with ironsights makes 300-400 meter targets a cakewalk. But do you really think this person wants to bust out the rifle during a home invasion and sling it up, maybe walk around the house on amber? The rounds are also very expensive, and at the range you seem to want to use it at, the long range effectiveness does not come into play.

Lastly, I would recommend using a 9mm as your starter gun. A 40 or 45 has a bit of kick to it, so unless you want to act like Billy Badass or scare intruders, I would recommend the 9. If you want to scare somebody, I would recommend a Desert Eagle 50 cal anyways:icon_twis. As far as 9mils go, I would have to recommend either a GLOCK 17 or 19, the 17 holds, you guessed it, 17 rounds! Also, the GLOCK has no safety other than cocking the hammer back, and is another weapon that is simple to take apart and clean. Another choice would be a Smith and Wesson 9mm MP model. Good price, and very reliable as well. There are two safetys on the weapon, and to be honest I recommend the GLOCK over it, but it is cheaper new than a used GLOCK. Above all else, take some weapons to the range and see what fits your style, maybe that AR-15 is the weapon for you, you wont know until you try it out!

 

[jlagman]

I think a lot of people have overlooked one of the most important considerations when discussing the shotgun as a home defense weapon, is it's versatility which lies in its ability to utilize many different kinds of loads. With carbines, rifles, and handguns, your choices are much more limited than a shotgun which can fire various types of lethal and less lethal ammo.

 

[corporateslave]

I am not a big fan of shotguns. I don't consider them bad I just don't like the lack of versatility as a weapon system. I currently own five guns and 0 of them are shotguns. I will probably own 10 to 20 guns before I consider buying a shotgun.

That being said, I still think they are an excellent choice for home defense. The best choice? I don't think so but you really can't go wrong with a shotgun. For the sake of continuing this discussion I will post an excerpt from the book "The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse" by Fernando Aguirre.

"Shotguns for Defense

I like shotguns because of their reliable mechanics and unparalleled stopping power at close range but I've always thought that they are not adequate for home defense, and the lessons learned during a defensive pistol class have reaffirmed this notion even more.

Even though many consider the shotgun to be THE best home defense weapon, there are a few issues that just don't add up when compared to what I consider more capable weapons for close quarters combat (CQC), the kind of fighting you are likely to engage inside your home.

First, most long arms are too big to move around a house.

It takes a lot of practice not to bump into every wall or piece of furniture, especially if under stress, and it gives just too much leverage in case an attacker gets hold of your barrel.

In spite of the maneuvers you can learn in case this happens, the truth is that a long arm does provide more leverage, more surface to grab, and if you are against a physically stronger attacker, odds are not in your favor when fighting over the weapon.

In a big isolated house or farm where the fight can easily be brought outside I'd much rather have a pistol caliber subgun or short carbine chambered for a rifle round.

For an average size house or apartment a big bore handgun would allow you to move around better, open doors and keep a "sacrifice" hand ready to keep an attacker at bay.

The pump shotgun also has another disadvantage that was made very clear to me while practicing retention drills and hand to hand techniques during the class: The pump shotgun obviously requires both hands to work, something that is fast to do when no one gives you a hard time, but you still need both hands none-the-less for each shot.

What I mean is, if you fired your weapon and the attacker happened to twist the barrel away from his body, you are now in a pretty big pool of fecal matter, fighting over a weapon that requires you to use the hand you are using to defend yourself from the attacker, and putting both hands on your shotgun allows your attacker to use one hand to keep the barrel away from his body and the other hand to punch/stab/shoot into your face at will.

You'll probably be locked together as you fight, so you also lack the range to put the barrel against him.

A handgun allows you to use your "sacrifice" hand to keep your attacker at bay, open doors as you move around, punch or push to gain more distance, while you can easily pump round after round with the weapon held close against your ribs, slightly angled down and pointed at the attacker's chest.

Trying all this out for real is very enlightening.

Remember taking the necessary precautions please! Both participants checking for themselves that the weapons used are empty before they exercise this.

Sure, cops use shotguns (though lately AR carbines are becoming more popular), but they choose shotguns because of other good reasons mentioned.

1) ALL cops carry a handgun as well, something most folks who recommend a shotgun as the one and only weapon for defense seem to forget.

2) They have other bystanders to worry about, and the shotgun's limited range is a terrific bonus regarding this issue. God only knows how many innocent bystanders are alive thanks to this wise decision.

3) Cops work as a team, they won't go anywhere alone if they can help it, specially face an armed attacker. Meaning, if an attacker gets hold of an officer's shotgun barrel, his partner will either shoot him or crack his skull wide open with his baton.

BIG difference: You are much more likely to be alone when handling something like that.

A short barrel AK would be much better than a pump shotgun regarding the ease of putting rounds down range just by pulling the trigger.

They also have much higher capacity, 30 rounds vs. 6-8 rounds in most pump shotguns.

A rifle round is very effective due to its high speed, but for home defense I'd go for JHP ammo to avoid over penetration, something that can happen with military FMJ ammo.

the carbine advantage becomes more evident when the fight is brought to your front lawn or back year, defending against attackers at longer ranges like Alejandro Reynoso mentions in his book regarding defending isolated retreats or farm houses. The rifle cartridge turns most cover into concealment since it penetrates much better than most pistol and shotgun cartridges."

 

[corporateslave]

First off, no disrespect to the poster, but it is highly unlikely that you will buy a gun used in a crime at a used gun shop. To sell a gun to a store you need to have a title which has your information and the information of whoever you bought your gun from. Also, on that title in the NSN, and all other information about the gun, round size barrel size, etc. This is for the very reason of people using guns in crimes and trying to sell them. No gun store will buy a gun with a scratched off serial number, and with good reason.

Second, whoever recommended the ar-15, here a few pros and cons of the weapon, or rifle. First, to whoever doesn't know, the AR-15 is the civilian model of an M-16, the one time standard military weapon. It is an upgrade of the earlier AR-10 model, and used .223, or 5.56 mm rounds. It is easy to fit an ACOG or red-dot sight onto it. The weapon is extremely easy to take apart and clean, and it is the easiest thing in the world to shoot and determine where and how to take off the safety.

However, I would never recommend it to be used as a home defense weapon. I mean come on, I understand it would be effective in a sense, but definately overkill. You might as well recommended that he/she needs to buy the m-203 grenade launcher attachment. The AR-15 is an assault rifle, best used on the battlefield, or a theraputic day at the range. Prone supported with this weapon even with ironsights makes 300-400 meter targets a cakewalk. But do you really think this person wants to bust out the rifle during a home invasion and sling it up, maybe walk around the house on amber? The rounds are also very expensive, and at the range you seem to want to use it at, the long range effectiveness does not come into play.

Lastly, I would recommend using a 9mm as your starter gun. A 40 or 45 has a bit of kick to it, so unless you want to act like Billy Badass or scare intruders, I would recommend the 9. If you want to scare somebody, I would recommend a Desert Eagle 50 cal anyways:icon_twis. As far as 9mils go, I would have to recommend either a GLOCK 17 or 19, the 17 holds, you guessed it, 17 rounds! Also, the GLOCK has no safety other than cocking the hammer back, and is another weapon that is simple to take apart and clean. Another choice would be a Smith and Wesson 9mm MP model. Good price, and very reliable as well. There are two safetys on the weapon, and to be honest I recommend the GLOCK over it, but it is cheaper new than a used GLOCK. Above all else, take some weapons to the range and see what fits your style, maybe that AR-15 is the weapon for you, you wont know until you try it out!

I have a few problems with your post.

Paragraph 1: I agree that it is highly unlikely that you will buy a stolen/used in a crime gun from a gun store. However, in America there is no such thing as a gun title (unless it is specific to your state and your state alone). I skimmed this thread so I don't know if the OP or you are from some different country but you do NOT need a "title" to sell a gun in all or almost all of America. A gun is not a car.

Paragraph 3: Overkill? We are talking about defending your life and the life of your family here. Also 5.56 is one of the smallest and least powerful rifle rounds. You are right that the "long range effectiveness" would not come into play, but it still will deliver more muzzle energy to your target at short range than virtually any pistol. In a self defense scenario, stopping power is of vital importance and I find it hard to believe that the stopping power of a rifle is too much to stop someone trying to kill you and your family. Second, I tend to buy my ammo online, where .223 is only marginally more expensive than .45 or other pistol rounds (9mm does have the benefit of being the cheapest pistol round though).

Paragraph 4: To most average size males the kick of a .40 or .45 is not going to be significantly more than a 9mm. .40 does probably have the most felt recoil out of the 3 but I feel that it is almost a non issue. I do agree with basically everything else you said here though. 9mm is still a great round for a first pistol and will be cheaper to shoot which means you can practice more. Also, your recommendations of a Glock or M&P are spot on. The 2 best polymer guns on the market as far as I'm concerned!

Sorry to nitpick I just take my guns very seriously!

PS the Glock is striker fired and does not have a hammer

 

[D Train]

To sell a gun to a store you need to have a title which has your information and the information of whoever you bought your gun from.

This is incorrect. I've sold guns (that I brought in private sales) to gun stores on multiple occassions.