Feinting the right, lead hook.

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by ssullivan80, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. ssullivan80

    ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

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    Leading with the lead hand hook used to be one of my favorite techniques, but unfortunately as i got older my hands slowed down quite a bit and it became less and less effective. I have always boxed as an out fighter, using my height and reach. I used to rely purely on quick feet and quick hands to throw that lead off hook and once that started to deteriorate i started abandoning the technique, assuming that the quicks where the only way i could make it effective consistently.

    A couple years ago though i trained with a guy who would consistently land lead off hooks on me and he was considerably slower than i was. I asked him how he was consistently landing that shot, he just replied "using a right hand feint to the body to set it up". This was a technique i was familiar with, but i really only used that right hand feint high, then threw the lead hook. See clip....

    Roy Jones Vs. Griffin
    very first punch Roy throws in the fight



    Strangely enough, it never occured to me to feint the right low, then throw that lead hook....... but it worked and has become another one of my favorite techniques and a new way to lead off with that left hook, works well for a lead UC too. See clip below, a perfect example of what i am trying to describe.

    2:59-3:02 of youtube video

    (0:32-0:34 of round)

    Feint right body, left hook up high

     
  2. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    pssst. come here... i'll let you in on a secret... the secret is dropping your weight on that front foot as you feint. shhhhhhhhhhhhh
     
  3. SAAMAG

    SAAMAG San Antonio Applied Martial Arts Group

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    I love using the lead hook. I used to use a right lead hook almost like a jab before, just was able to pop people left and right. Er...well...right and right. Though I've got a faster/stronger right lead hook then I do left lead, but since I fight mostly orthodox I've had to adapt a bit with the left.

    So now I'll throw feints in for a lot of setups. Load up as if to throw a rear body kick then throw the lead hook as they're moving away from "the kick". Feinting the right (and yes loading up the front leg as Chino already stated). I'll use the jab, rear uppercut feint to left hook...etc. But sometimes all it takes though is a quick jerk of the shoulder before the punch. Just depends on how the other guy reacts.

    Mitt reaction drills for lead hook:

    Have the holder pop up the mitt and count to whatever in their head (1 second--2 seconds) and the puncher needs to hit the mitt before the x seconds then the pad is removed. Time decreases as proficiency develops.

    I also practice it as a right straight counter with the mitts, slipping to outside of right using counter left hook.

    Sparring drill, make the jab and the left hook the ONLY punches that the guy can fully use during sparring. This will develop timing with those specific punches while the other guy can punch with anything he wants.
     
  4. sturmgeist

    sturmgeist Purple Belt

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    Pay attention to the subtleties of the footwork in that second vid. Look at the slight shift from heel to ball of foot on the left, and the slight pivot accompanying it. The toe is pointed out and the weight is on the heel, the feet are pointing the way they would for a cross through the feint - the body is not telegraphing the intent. If you go to throw the feint with your feet set for a hook it will be obvious to someone paying attention to your footwork. Then after the feint, when the guy is watching the punch and not the feet, the weight shifts to the toe, which pivots to the right in the direction the fist will travel.

    When you throw the hook, you shift the weight, pivot slightly, and dig in hard with your back foot. By dig in I mean the ball of your foot should pivot from being pointed forward to being pointed to your right side(similar angle as your lead foot) and you should extend your leg, pushing your toes into the ground. This creates a hip and shoulder rotation that will speed everything up. Quickness in a hook should come from the hips, you only need handspeed enough to get your fist into position. Your body should be doing the rest of the work. The more you move your arm through the punch, the more you're likely to encounter off-axis torque, where your elbow is out of line with the direction of the blow. At best it takes the piss out of your punch, at worst you can blow your elbow out on a solid hit. Make sure your arm and elbow always travel a path parallel to the line of force. If you throw a half hook, don't change the angle of your arm without changing the direction of your rotation and/or bending slightly at the waist to keep the same arm angle as a regular hook. But also be careful not to dip your left shoulder noticeably when chambering the punch, as that's another tell for an experienced boxer.

    If you've got a quick hook you're gifted, because it just really isn't a naturally speedy punch, there's so much more circular motion to it, it will never match the speed of a straight punch with a spring motion behind it, like a jab, cross, or even an uppercut, which is much more devestating when delivered in a straight path than an arc.

    You should also work on setting that lead hook up with the liberal use of the double jab. Throw the double jab enough and it will throw your opponent off to both the lead hook and to the jab-hook. When you pump your double jab, put your force into the second jab. That way, when you use the jab, hook, it's not important to land the jab, just put it in his face, and he'll expect a stiff jab coming next, and voila you have maneuvered his guard right where you want it, opening him up for a hook.

    I keep thinking of something else to add.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  5. SAAMAG

    SAAMAG San Antonio Applied Martial Arts Group

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    This might illustrate a little of what you're talking about...



    The shifting from to back, going from front heel on ground to raised heel while dropping down on the rear heel is a standard boxing lead hook. Illustrated nicely here by A.Silva. What I like is he also illustrates hooking methods with flat feet using the body torque in the waist. This is also how Bas throws the hook, flat footed, from the waist torque.

    I do both, depends on how I feel.

    But another good video to watch about the left hook is this one:



    I try to tell people...whether kicking or punching...it's ALL IN THE HIPS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  6. sturmgeist

    sturmgeist Purple Belt

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    The flat lead foot, giving more of a push, as they said can be used to set up a rear leg round kick. I think this is more common in Muay Thai, and that's probably why Bas uses it. I'm extremely duck footed, like Bas, and that aspect alone will translate to huge angle differences in footwork from person to person, so keep that in mind.

    If you look at Anderson's 2 hooks, when he has his lead foot planted, his rear heel comes up off the ground. When he has his lead heel up, his rear heel is planted. I like a combination of the two, pivoting the lead foot and raising the back heel while extending the rear leg. It provides a good balance between push and snap for me and it provides more llower body extension, and in turn torque, without overextending with the upper body.

    Again, your mileage may vary. I'm 5'10" 160lbs with a 69 1/2" reach, so my hooks tend to be used for in-fighting exclusively.

    Great exposition on the principles there Vankuen.

    Also, the instruction in the second video is great, but watch when the kid's elbow flips up. That's what you don't want. That's power being lost from the hit and being transferred into sideways torque on your elbow and shoulder.

    Also, one more thing to think about - the closer your elbow is to a 90 degree bend, the more power your hook will have. Extend past 90 degrees and you trade power for range. Look at the head of a hammer. It is set perpendicular to the handle because it imparts more force, and at an angle that the handle can withstand. If the hammer's head were set at a wider angle, there would be less force imparted and more broken handles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  7. 1366613

    1366613 Sambo Ronin

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    if there paying that close to your foot work they might just get ktfo
     
  8. SAAMAG

    SAAMAG San Antonio Applied Martial Arts Group

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    With respect to the bold, I noticed it. Though I won't argue it because I'm nak muay with a little boxing thrown in...not pure boxing.

    That coach is awesome so if it was "wrong" he would have said something more than likely. I throw hooks with elbow on the same plane as the fist, or slightly below. Never higher. But again, that's not me in the vid and that kid competes. So not for me to say how it works for him.
     
  9. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    damn you guys type too damn much. its quite simple. drop the weight on your front foot then explode. keep it as subtle as possible.
     
  10. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    the more subtle you are, the more speed the technique has. its not literally the speed of the movement, its the subtleness of your technique that gives you speed.
     
  11. sturmgeist

    sturmgeist Purple Belt

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    Yeah, bout as simple as a golf swing, that's why everyone has great hooks. :S

    And as far as the kid's technique, you can think what you want, but the elbow popping up(or dropping down the other way) is not optimal and will result in lost power and can lead to injury. Nobody need take my word for it. A few minutes on the heavy bag can demonstrate. The risk of injury is minimal when you're hitting pads compared to a bag or a person.
     
  12. ssullivan80

    ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

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    I agree that dropping the weight on the front foot is the easiest and most consistently effective way to use this technique. That said, It is not the only way. If your in the pocket or wanting to pull out/back behind the 2 feint (draw opponent into hook), it is far and away the best way to do it though.

    If your at range and trying to close the distance, try sliding your rear foot forward up on the ball of the foot, then fire in by pushing off the back foot.... as you push off that back foot you extend out the cross feint and throw the lead hook as your firing in. In this case the cross feint when pushing off the back foot gets your rear shoulder forward so you can torque it back to whip the lead hook out there as you close the gap. Not as much "ass" into the hook as having the front foot planted, but if your opponent back up or covers (if ya sell the feint) that whipping lead hook can set em down. If ya watch that clip of RJJ below, he really doesn't drop his weight on his front foot when he uses that right hand feint, he just paws it out there and fires of his rear foot, then uses the shoulder turn to create the power, Roy actually did this quite a bit.... Floyd Jr does too....... It seems to be a shot that speedier guys use best, but there are exceptions....... I.E: Hagler, Frasier.
     
  13. sturmgeist

    sturmgeist Purple Belt

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    From the discussion on the youtube video with David Lemieux:


    3 months ago
    That's actually more of an old school hook. There is a more effective hook with more correct form. The hook in this video injures a lot of shoulders because on impact, the elbow is higher than the fist which pulls the rotator cuff. The elbow should never climb higher than the fist and the fist should be turned sideways, not down. This allows the force of the blow to go into your core and not your elbow and shoulder.
    No biggie. There are many variations.


    Many variations indeed. I am not one to say what is correct and what is not, because I use many techniques that would be considered unorthodox. I only meant to point out, and before the vid was posted I might add, that letting the elbow pop up like that can lead to injury. The kid doesn't do it every time either. Many times his elbow is level and parallel to the ground, the way I would suggest. That speaks of an inconsistency in his motion. That's not a slight on him in ANY way, look how young he is! To expect perfectly repeatable form from a kid like that is assinine - nobody would do such a thing. But, for his age there, he's damn good.
     
  14. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    i dont know what you see. but i see him drop the weight. he just does it very very subtle. he step forward, feints and drops his weight, turns and punch.
     
  15. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    something so simple can be very difficult to be good at.
     
  16. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    look at how rjj finishes off griffin. same thing i was talking about. dropping the weight and throwing. its the same exact technique as his first punch. except he adds more movement, makes it more powerful but not as fast.
     
  17. ssullivan80

    ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

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    Your right that is probably not the best representation.... but if ya watch close you see him slide up that right foot, then lean forward, but he is still heavier on that rear foot.... how he fires in so quick. This video shows a few clips that are probably better representations of what i described below. The first clip against Vinny P and again later they show that same Griffin KO but from a different angle..... Either way, you see him several times in this clip feinting that right while sliding up the right foot and firing in off it, often lands that hook without his front foot even planted on the mat. Just whips his shoulders and hips through and smacks that hook in there. Not a technique I would ever use often, not everyone is blessed with that kind of speed. But just a variation on how to throw the right feint lead hook....... Still, im not arguing that shifting your weight on to the front foot and exploding into the hook is not the best practice, it certainly is in my opinion! Just that it is not the only way.

     
  18. ambertch

    ambertch Purple Belt

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    With fakes it generally works like this: the more skilled you are the better you are at realizing fakes, but at the same time the motions you visually cue into with your eyes to react to a technique become small, and minute.

    So if you look at RJJ's fake it's REALLY subtle. Very hard to compare with what we'd be doing since a less skilled opponent might even have never reacted to the fake, lol.

    Versus see if you and I are faking a level change to drop the guard and go upstairs with a hook, we'd probably make a bit more exaggerated movements to make the straight right hand convincing enough for the guy to fall for it and ACTUALLY REACT to it



    But then of course if you go up against a beginner, he'll react to ANYTHING so doesn't really matter if your fake sucks, lol.
     
  19. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    ahahh hilarious... thats the truth right there. unless you're at that level, you wont even react to that feint.
     
  20. loyal2thegame

    loyal2thegame White Belt

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    Good post/discussion. I have a MT fight next week and this is one of the techniques I've been trying in sparring with good results. Hopefully I can use it effectively in the fight.
     

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