Fedor's striking: Straight punch doesn't always beat a looping punch...

[Mentallooser]

just spent the last 20 minutes figuring it out with the pads. Was bothering me. I can see how it would be effective if timed right. You can get some decent pop on it, and also throws you into the clinch with some good momentum.

 

[berkut]

Umm, ummm I'm confused.

Isn't TS talking about wide punches, not hooks vs straights and jabs, i.e what your post is about. Because if he's arguing over what your talking about this thread is somewhat retarded. Not your post, but arguing over which punch is better is pretty stupid.

I think he means the form. There's a difference between compact hooks and wide hooks. I don't know the specific names, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about compact punches vs looping punches or in other words wide punches. i.e the exact opposite of compact.

Like I stated earlier looping punches leave you more vulnerable than compact punches, that is a fact. The potential benefits of looping punches are definitely out weighed by the potential harm it can cause.

You're right, I'm not comparing hooks to straits.

I'm talking about the wide looping punches (i.e. Fedor's casting punches from combat sambo) which are very different from the compact punches that are taught in boxing.

This is why people familiar with boxing think it's just Fedor having bad technique, when in reality there is alot of technique behind it...

 

[CokeBoyz]

Fedor lands alot of wild looping punches, because people stand right in front of him. Fedor has alot of power and is a great mma fighter. But is by no means someone to look up to for technical stand-up.

 

[xilliun]

No, it's basic physics. A wider punch has a greater distance to travel, therefor, time to impact is higher than what it would be for a straight punch.

 

[berkut]

just spent the last 20 minutes figuring it out with the pads. Was bothering me. I can see how it would be effective if timed right. You can get some decent pop on it, and also throws you into the clinch with some good momentum.

Yes, I think one of the most clear examples of how it helps you transition to the clinch and straight into the takedown if you miss was in the first fedor vs. nog fight.

On the first exchange of the third round you see fedor throw the casting punch as nogueira is coming in, he misses the punch but his arm naturally wraps around nog's neck and he uses it to immediately take nog down.

You can see it at the 2:09 mark of this highlight.

YouTube - Fedor Emelianenko vs. Antonio Rodorigo Nogueira

It was also perfectly executed by Fedor in his fight against Brett Rogers. During the second standup exchange of the first round Fedor throws the casting punch, wraps the arm around the neck and uses it to transition right into a hip toss.

Those are two examples where the casting punch missed but he was able to use it to tie up his opponent in the clinch and initiate the takedown.

For other examples where the punches landed you can watch Fedor vs. Goodridge, Fedor vs. Ogawa or Fedor vs. Tim Sylvia to name a few...

 

[TheSpiderSilva]

Yup slap em with the back of your hand not your knuckles great technique there also great way to dislocate shoulder. Those guys best be trollin

The guy in the video sucks obviously, but that is the way Fedor punches, its called Casting Punching. Its Sambo technique. I've watched seminars where he teaches and thats how he teaches the punch, with a bend in the wrist ect ect. You see him doing that when he shadow boxes too. But he hits with the first two knuckles, not the back of his hand lol. And its funny he says the reason for a bend in the wrist is to STOP breaking your hand but he breaks his hand all the fucking time from punching like that. He uses that punching style in his GnP too.

 

[SAAMAG]

Umm, ummm I'm confused...

Based on his original post he is trying to argue that Fedor's punch is all technique and that straight punches aren't always better than wide looping punches. Then he goes on to theorize--incorrectly--that the reason is because of the glove size. Then he goes on to imply that it helps to protect your chin and setup for the takedown.

Note the bold here on his first post:

I've been noticing alot of people giving Fedor a hard time because of his wide looping punching style saying he has bad standup technique.

I beg to differ. A straight punch is not always better than a wide looping punch, especially not in MMA with the small gloves.

...In boxing this is recommended because looping punches don't do much damage with those big gloves on....

In mma they are much more effective and also help to protect your chin and also help to wrap up your opponent and initiate a takedown from the clinch.

So what I wrote was actually in line with his idea that straights aren't always the answer--because there are no absolutes. I don't think I said anything about a curved punch being compact or loose. Nor did I comment on the idea that it protects your chin or sets up a takedown better than any other punch.

That said, I believe that keeping your chin down and your other hand up is what protects your chin...and what sets up a good takedown is timing, distance, and control. The idea that throwing a hand out in the hopes of rushing in to wrap up the opponent isn't the best idea when you have someone who is a fast and compact counter puncher. The long and short of it is his argument for the casting punch is weak and without merit.

You have to remember that boxing evolved from bare-knuckle boxing, where standing grappling was allowed and fists had no gloves. So if the casting style punch was all that effective it would have evolved with the art of boxing. Instead, the popular punches were the straight punches with the palm up because doing anything different often ended with broken knuckles. FWIW...the casting punch can just as easily be replaced with any overhand right/left, leaving the puncher with less likelihood of ruining his shoulder and retaining the ability to use the same punching angle.

Like I stated earlier looping punches leave you more vulnerable than compact punches, that is a fact. The potential benefits of looping punches are definitely out weighed by the potential harm it can cause.

I agree. Looping punches can be likened to the shogun or hail mary pass as a last ditch effort to win the game in american football. If the pass connects, there are big payoffs--but more often than not it doesn't connect and still ends with that team losing the game. Why does it work in MMA? Because the striking game isn't as developed as it is in other striking arts.

 

[nefti]

it's all relative. Fedor wants to connect the punch with the chinch. So if it doesn't hand he is in clinching range so it does what he wants a punch to do. Also, let's not forget how often fedor breaks his hands

 

[Code N]

You're right, I'm not comparing hooks to straits.

I'm talking about the wide looping punches (i.e. Fedor's casting punches from combat sambo) which are very different from the compact punches that are taught in boxing.

This is why people familiar with boxing think it's just Fedor having bad technique, when in reality there is alot of technique behind it...

It's not really bad technique; I shouldn't have even said that in the first post. You throw a specific punch pending on the situation. Boxers are well aware of looping and compact punches. If all you throw are looping punches then that's bad IMO. I personally wouldn't throw one, unless the situation called for it, but that's what you should do for all power punches right. Just throwing wide punches without careful consideration for the situation is retarded. That's bad. You have to analyze the situation before you commit to a power punch especially to a wide punch that's going to leave you open to a counter. That's how you know if someone can fight IMO, if they throw a punch that's good for the situation. i.e not only throwing haymakers (streetfights) for everything.

That's what I've been taught.

PS: What's that casting punch? Is that how he throws it like in the video with the guy talking? Link me to one of Fedors video's and tell me when he throws it.

 

[berkut]

Based on his original post he is trying to argue that Fedor's punch is all technique and that straight punches aren't always better than wide looping punches. Then he goes on to theorize--incorrectly--that the reason is because of the glove size. Then he goes on to imply that it helps to protect your chin and setup for the takedown.

Note the bold here on his first post:




So what I wrote was actually in line with his idea that straights aren't always the answer--because there are no absolutes. I don't think I said anything about a curved punch being compact or loose. Nor did I comment on the idea that it protects your chin or sets up a takedown better than any other punch.

That said, I believe that keeping your chin down and your other hand up is what protects your chin...and what sets up a good takedown is timing, distance, and control. The idea that throwing a hand out in the hopes of rushing in to wrap up the opponent isn't the best idea when you have someone who is a fast and compact counter puncher. The long and short of it is his argument for the casting punch is weak and without merit.

You have to remember that boxing evolved from bare-knuckle boxing, where standing grappling was allowed and fists had no gloves. So if the casting style punch was all that effective it would have evolved with the art of boxing. Instead, the popular punches were the straight punches with the palm up because doing anything different often ended with broken knuckles. FWIW...the casting punch can just as easily be replaced with any overhand right/left, leaving the puncher with less likelihood of ruining his shoulder and retaining the ability to use the same punching angle.



I agree. Looping punches can be likened to the shogun or hail mary pass as a last ditch effort to win the game in american football. If the pass connects, there are big payoffs--but more often than not it doesn't connect and still ends with that team losing the game. Why does it work in MMA? Because the striking game isn't as developed as it is in other striking arts.

I disagree with your assesment on the casting punch, actually the casting punch is an old school boxing technique, I believe in boxing they called it the long hook.

It is never taught anymore because boxing has changed alot from the original barenuckle takedown fights.

The advantages of the casting punch are not applicaple in boxing today due to the use of big gloves and the absence of takedowns.

I also disagree with your opinion that standard overhand right can perfom the same function as the casting punch for a few reasons.

1. An overhand right/left is alot easier to slip to the outside therefore negating the opportunity to wrap your opponent up and take him down.

2. Your center of gravity and momentum is affected alot more when you throw straight overhand right than when throwin a long looping hook, therefor by throwing the long looping punch you can much better maintain your balance and center of gravity in order to transition immidately into the clinch takedown without having to reset...

 

[berkut]

It's not really bad technique; I shouldn't have even said that in the first post. You throw a specific punch pending on the situation. Boxers are well aware of looping and compact punches. If all you throw are looping punches then that's bad IMO. I personally wouldn't throw one, unless the situation called for it, but that's what you should do for all power punches right. Just throwing wide punches without careful consideration for the situation is retarded. That's bad. You have to analyze the situation before you commit to a power punch especially to a wide punch that's going to leave you open to a counter. That's how you know if someone can fight IMO, if they throw a punch that's good for the situation. i.e not only throwing haymakers (streetfights) for everything.

That's what I've been taught.

PS: What's that casting punch? Is that how he throws it like in the video with the guy talking? Link me to one of Fedors video's and tell me when he throws it.

check out my earlier post, you can see it very clearly in the first fedor vs. nog fight, right at the beginning of the third round fedor throws the casting punch, it misses but his arm wraps around the back of nog's neck and he transitions immediately into the clinch takedown...

 

[SAAMAG]

PS: What's that casting punch? Is that how he throws it like in the video with the guy talking? Link me to one of Fedors video's and tell me when he throws it.

​

You'll know it when you see it. Go to the end like at 4:50...the fight only lasts a few seconds.

I disagree with your assesment on the casting punch, actually the casting punch is an old school boxing technique, I believe in boxing they called it the long hook.

Do you have any data to support this claim? Citation? Because long hooks from my experience are just long hooks (e.g. long range shallow arc'd hook punches). But maybe you know something I don't.

It is never taught anymore because boxing has changed alot from the original barenuckle takedown fights.

There are a lot of things that are different. It's not taught anymore because if the "casting punch" is what was cited by those nerds...then it's simply not allowed since punches using the back of the hand are illegal in boxing. Though from what I know of FEDOR'S punch (regardless of the name) his hits with his first two knuckles, and the punch isn't rolled over more than 45 degrees. It's essentially an overhand that comes a little wider than normal.

The advantages of the casting punch are not applicaple in boxing today due to the use of big gloves and the absence of takedowns.

Wait...so then the punch is only good when takedowns are involved and people aren't wearing gloves? How is it ALL those other curved punches do so well then? I mean we are talking about a PUNCH right?

I also disagree with your opinion that standard overhand right can perfom the same function as the casting punch for a few reasons.

1. An overhand right/left is alot easier to slip to the outside therefore negating the opportunity to wrap your opponent up and take him down.

2. Your center of gravity and momentum is affected alot more when you throw straight overhand right than when throwin a long looping hook, therefor by throwing the long looping punch you can much better maintain your balance and center of gravity in order to transition immidately into the clinch takedown without having to reset...

1. Any punch can be evaded...the ability to do so has more to do with the person than the punch being given to them. Generally you slip straight punches...not curved ones, btw.

2. No it's not--and with that statement I'm now wondering if you experience with either punch. EVERY PUNCH YOU THROW you never reach, and always maintain your balance keeping your body's COG under you. If you're off balance, it's got nothing to do with the mechanics of the punch's design, but rather your lack of being able to do it.

...


All in all, if you're just wanting people to see that Fedor's punch has some technique and strategy to it...then most people in the know realize that. While there are textbook punches, people will have varying styles in which they throw those punches...and many will be slightly different from another. The people that complain about Fedor's technique or lack thereof will talk no matter what you say in this thread. It's just life.

 

[TheSpiderSilva]

​

There are a lot of things that are different. It's not taught anymore because if the "casting punch" is what was cited by those nerds...then it's simply not allowed since punches using the back of the hand are illegal in boxing.

It's not meant to be landed with the back of the hand, only in that video does it land like that, and it's on a pad for teaching purposes. It's supposed to land with the first 2 knuckles like any other punch. The difference to a normal punch is that there is a bend in the wrist and its thrown with slightly different fundementals.

 

[SAAMAG]

It's not meant to be landed with the back of the hand, only in that video does it land like that, and it's on a pad for teaching purposes. It's supposed to land with the first 2 knuckles like any other punch. The difference to a normal punch is that there is a bend in the wrist and its thrown with slightly different fundementals.

You replied before I added in some stuff!! But yea that's what I'm talking about. Fedor's punch, as made obvious in his actual fights, isn't the same punch as on that video of the nerds.

That was noticeable right off.

 

[SAAMAG]

Check out this punch at :56. Look familiar?

​

 

[206warrior]

I dunno, it seems to work great for Fedor, and for russian military training. Like I said it isn't a durable way to fight, but it works great. I guess you just aren't open to new things.

Are you saying this because the way you throw the casting punch, it is easier to break your hand?

 

[thirteen]

Has Fedor fought anyone with good technical boxing that throws lots of straight punches?

I kinda remember Arlovski going pretty good before the flying knee (with led to him getting KTFO), but can't recall exactly what Arlovski was throwing at Fedor before he fucked up.

I only box, so I'll stick to the boxing way of doing things.
If I were training MMA or Sambo things might be different.

 

[TheSpiderSilva]

Has Fedor fought anyone with good technical boxing that throws lots of straight punches?

I kinda remember Arlovski going pretty good before the flying knee (with led to him getting KTFO), but can't recall exactly what Arlovski was throwing at Fedor before he fucked up.

I only box, so I'll stick to the boxing way of doing things.
If I were training MMA or Sambo things might be different.

Arlovski, but Arlovski litterally hadn't landed a single significant blow at that point, he had Fedor back pedalling and Arlovski was punching first, but Fedor was blocking or rolling with all the punches and for all we know he wanted Arlovski to come forward agressively. Fedor wasn't getting "dominated" on the feet before he KO'ed him like some people like to say, he was just on the defence, no significant shots landed.

 

[thirteen]

A'ha cool mate thanks for that.
Long time since I watched it.
Only thing I remember is Arlovski's limp husk hitting the canvas.

 

[CokeBoyz]

Has Fedor fought anyone with good technical boxing that throws lots of straight punches?

I kinda remember Arlovski going pretty good before the flying knee (with led to him getting KTFO), but can't recall exactly what Arlovski was throwing at Fedor before he fucked up.

I only box, so I'll stick to the boxing way of doing things.
If I were training MMA or Sambo things might be different.

No you were pretty much right. & Fedor like pretty much all mma fighters never fought anyone with good technical boxing.

@SpiderSilva I mean the fight was only like 2 minutes long, but from the start Fedor was looking bad. Arlovski came out landed some leg kicks, 2 rights, a few bodyshots, and a uppercut when fedor was coming in with his head down. Then him and Fedor clinched against the ring, then it was 1 or 2 more exchanges won by arlovski, and Fedor caught him.

Now its not right to judge Fedors overall stand-up from a couple minutes of a fight. But I mean if you watch him the flaws are there. He pulls straight back sometimes with his head in the air, he throws overhands from a mile away out, keeps his hands low, throws uppercuts from the outside, etc..
The Technical flaws are there, but he has alot of power and hasnt really fought anyone with the ability to expose these flaws.