fast promotions??

[DonVito25]

I have been training 4 days a week for 1.5 years..the first 6 months was BJJ and the last year was Judo. To date, I feel as if I've trained at reputable clubs. However, I feel that my Judo instructor is promoting me way to fast. For example, we are on a White Yellow Green Brown Black scale. My instructor came to me the other day and indicated that he wanted to promote me to Brown belt. Personally, I do not feel that I am at a brown belt level after only 1 year of Judo. I have competed, gone to clinics, and attended 3-4 days a week, but still I feel like I lack a lot that only experience can bring.

I would like to get some of ya'lls opinions on the matter. Although I would like to turn down the kind gesture, I do not want to disrespect my sensai. When I take a step back and evaluate my competencies I def. dont see myself at this level. What would you do in this situation? Has it happened to anyone else?

 

[rackem]

take it you might not get a black belt for about 5 years

 

[hayliks]

a lot of judo clubs promote like mcdojos

 

[kidrobot]

mcdojo!

 

[georgejjr]

The judo model isn't 1st degree black belt = expert, it's 1st degree black belt = grade 1 student. Pre-black belt is kindergarten.

When Kano came up with the belt rank system (and he was the first to do it) his idea was that a black belt meant you knew enough of the basics ... mainly how to do a breakfall and very basic throws ... that you were considered a student. Which is why he made 10 degrees of black belt. In Japan you're not considered ready to teach until at least 4th dan, and you're not considered to be an expert until 6th dan (again, why have 10 dans if you're already an expert at 1st dan). In Japan its common to get a 1st dan as part of high school gym class. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, if you consider pre-black belt to be kindergarten (and in Japan the only belt colors are white, brown and black), and 1st degree black belt to mean you're ready to be a student, and 6th degree to mean expert.

Somehow North Americans and Europeans twisted that into believing 1st dan meant expert (maybe because even a 2 year student can tie up someone who's done no grappling). Other arts, when they copied judo's belt system (again, Kano came up with it), started arguing that black belt should mean expert (maybe because it meant you could look at the belt color and see who's an expert, something not important to the Japanese judoka).

The upshot is, if your instructor is grading you quickly, he's probably on the Japanese model (ie the original model), and figures a black belt should only mean you can do a breakfall and a few throws. It's not McDojo, its traditional.

Moreover, in judo no one really looks at rank anymore. Nowadays, people ask about what tournaments (ideally international) you've fought and placed it ... no wins in international tournaments and you're not an expert, no matter what your rank is. Going to the olympics is considered way more impressive than having some arbitrary high rank - in fact, they don't even announce what ranks people have in the olympics, simply because it's considered to be irrelevant. They do announce what tournaments people have won.

 

[Clifford]

George what would you say is an average time to get a black belt in Judo? In comparison to BJJ which I believe is 8-10 years average.

 

[georgejjr]

About 2 years ... again, the Japanese are traditionalists, and black belt means beginning student, not expert. In Japan, the dividing line is rokudan (6th dan) - they won't give you that unless you've had major tournament success. Meaning either international level, or the All-Japan tournament. Arguably 6th degree in judo is equivalent to a black belt in BJJ, in that you have to earn it.

I admit I like the judo system better. In BJJ, there are 10 degrees of black belt, none of which mean anything after the 1st. Why bother having 10 degrees, if you have to be an expert to get the first? In judo, the 1st degree doesn't mean much, but if you meet someone with 6th or higher you can assume he's done well fighting internationally (except in the US, where there are 3 governing bodies who throw ranks around pretty fast for political reasons ... ie "we've got more high ranks than you do" mentality).

Of course, it's complex in that some countries like Russia don't bother about rank (they've got their own master and international of sport titles they prefer), so you can run across 1st dans who are world champions. Like I said, in judo people don't talk about rank much, they ask about tournament experience. It's likely that ranks will dissappear from judo in the next few decades (they already don't have belt divisions in competition ... instead tournaments are ranked, and you have to earn the right to fight in higher level tournaments).

 

[sproggdawg]

The judo model isn't 1st degree black belt = expert, it's 1st degree black belt = grade 1 student. Pre-black belt is kindergarten.

When Kano came up with the belt rank system (and he was the first to do it) his idea was that a black belt meant you knew enough of the basics ... mainly how to do a breakfall and very basic throws ... that you were considered a student. Which is why he made 10 degrees of black belt. In Japan you're not considered ready to teach until at least 4th dan, and you're not considered to be an expert until 6th dan (again, why have 10 dans if you're already an expert at 1st dan). In Japan its common to get a 1st dan as part of high school gym class. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, if you consider pre-black belt to be kindergarten (and in Japan the only belt colors are white, brown and black), and 1st degree black belt to mean you're ready to be a student, and 6th degree to mean expert.

Somehow North Americans and Europeans twisted that into believing 1st dan meant expert (maybe because even a 2 year student can tie up someone who's done no grappling). Other arts, when they copied judo's belt system (again, Kano came up with it), started arguing that black belt should mean expert (maybe because it meant you could look at the belt color and see who's an expert, something not important to the Japanese judoka).

The upshot is, if your instructor is grading you quickly, he's probably on the Japanese model (ie the original model), and figures a black belt should only mean you can do a breakfall and a few throws. It's not McDojo, its traditional.

Moreover, in judo no one really looks at rank anymore. Nowadays, people ask about what tournaments (ideally international) you've fought and placed it ... no wins in international tournaments and you're not an expert, no matter what your rank is. Going to the olympics is considered way more impressive than having some arbitrary high rank - in fact, they don't even announce what ranks people have in the olympics, simply because it's considered to be irrelevant. They do announce what tournaments people have won.

Great post man! Very informative.

 

[KenTheWalrus]

This happened to me. I went directly from white to brown after ten months (white, green, blue, brown scale). It isn't a McDojo. There is one guy who has been a blue belt for a couple years now, another guy who got his blue the same day I got my brown and he has been training judo for two years, and another guy who got his brown the same day who has been training for three years. Besides, there are three levels of brown to go through before black.

The promotion is up to your sensei. I felt like I didn't deserve it so I felt like I had to step my training up a notch. Now I feel like I do deserve it.

Some of the guys actually complained about their promotions which prompted my sensei to stop class and tell everyone that promotions are his decision and no one else's so just accept it.

Take it if you have a choice. It allows you to compete in brown and black at tournaments.

The fastest anyone has received a black belt, that my sensei knows of, is 4 years. I'm working on getting it in three. -ken

**Edit: My post sounds pretty egotistical. What I mean is that promotions are based on individual performance. People, especially hard working people, tend to see themselves to a lesser degree than outside observers might. If you trust your sensei is giving you good instructions trust that he is also giving you a good and deserved promotion.**

 

[AzRich75]

you will always be your own worse critic. if your instructor feels you are ready, as a student do you think you may be more informed then him to question his decision?

 

[DonVito25]

I want to thank you all for the well informed posts.

 

[Balto]

Like everyone said, it's a different system. It's not McDojo; in fact, you could argue that it's really was intended by the creator of belts.

Kano's original idea for a black belt (first degree shodan) is somewhere in between a blue belt and a purple belt in BJJ.

 

[Etg061000]

how fast is a mcdojo promotion?

 

[Balto]

how fast is a mcdojo promotion?

The real issue has nothing to do with speed.

I'd say a "McDojo" promotion is more about selling the rank. That is, charging people high testing and certification fees and ensuring high rank turnover to make a profit.

You could have a BJJ normed system where 10 years is average for a black belt, and it could still be McDojo. Just put 4 stripes on every belt, charge $100 for each stripe promotion, $500 for a belt promotion, etc.

In general, I think it's better to train at a school where you are treated like a student, not a customer.

I am not in favor of anyone using martial arts as a business venture. I know that is a little controversial, but once you make your martial arts school your source of income, it becomes VERY easy for you to turn your school into a McDojo (even if you never had any intention of doing so in the first place).