Fascinating approach to HW GOAT

if we had a bill and ted time machine and we could go and grab all these guys at their peaks, Fedor is gonna slap the shit out of these guys.

I think stylistically Cormier and Fedor would be a close fight.

I think Fedor knocks out Stipe fairly early though. Stipe was having issues with DC's speed early on and does not have good defense. I don't think he takes one of Fedor's bombs off the chin.
 
Because UFC bubble

Never forget Mark Hunt brutalized Fedor for 8 minutes
 
I think stylistically Cormier and Fedor would be a close fight.

I think Fedor knocks out Stipe fairly early though. Stipe was having issues with DC's speed early on and does not have good defense. I don't think he takes one of Fedor's bombs off the chin.
I agree dc would be one of the tougher fights but I also don't recall any of dc's past opponents being as agile and dangerous off of their back with subs, would definitely love to see that hypothetical fight.
 
Fedor, DC are the GOAT HWs.

Next tier: Reem, Werdum, Cain and
Stipe.
Lol it's Fedor all by himself at the top.

Then Big Nog, Werdum, Stipe, and JDS.

DC isn't top 5

And I like Overeem, but lol
 
brutalized? Lol...did the UFC say that or are you saying it?
UFC. Goldberg I think it was, it was awhile ago. Around the same time they were in overdrive pushing Anderson as GOAT and they used “the myth of Fedor” line
 
You went on a long and passionate rant about how others are stupid and you're telling someone else to relax? The pot called the kettle and said "you're black."
I called out morons as being morons. Sort of weird you’re making it out to be something more complex/taking it so personal.
 
You described marketing in general, not exclusive to the UFC. Selling bullshit to idiots.
 
I called out morons as being morons. Sort of weird you’re making it out to be something more complex/taking it so personal.
Forgive me. I have a natural disdain for the self-impressed.

You consider them morons based on your parameters for the "truth", and they consider themselves correct based on other parameters. Whether there is a truth of the matter about these "greatest of all time" questions is not itself clearly intelligible, for many reasons. But you still find the need to insult people.
 
Forgive me. I have a natural disdain for the self-impressed.

You consider them morons based on your parameters for the "truth", and they consider themselves correct based on other parameters. Whether there is a truth of the matter about these "greatest of all time" questions is not itself clearly intelligible, for many reasons. But you still find the need to insult people.
Yeah not gonna soften my stance here.

I think I’m correct because I look at/respect the sport enough to look at its history, while they think they’re right because... the UFC told them so. Honestly you can’t make any other argument as to why they think they’re right.

They literally argued every goddamn belt holder of the last decade was the HW GOAT. It is a joke that deserves ridicule. No need to get mad at the internet person ridiculing it when it has a billion-dollar industry pushing that line of bullshit.
 
Yeah not gonna soften my stance here.

I think I’m correct because I look at/respect the sport enough to look at its history, while they think they’re right because... the UFC told them so. Honestly you can’t make any other argument as to why they think they’re right.
Look at this beautiful strawman here. Why can't I do that in any debate? Let's do this in the courtrooms. "I think I'm right because of facts and logic, broadly and vaguely speaking, and they think they're right because of lies and superstitions." It's funny, because even if you argued that yours was a proper representation of history, that could be debated within a parameters debate. But you're more ambitious than that. You pair your claims that you represent history with a strawman for their arguments. If only this kind of argumentation was valid in the courts then I'd win every case.

Even if we were to grant that it was ok to criticize billion-dollar industries with impunity, let's just say due to the power imbalance, that's not what you're doing. You're not criticizing the industry, you're criticizing fans and everyday-folk who you think are stupid in believing the arguments that they put forth. So you're trying to set up this picture of a power imbalance, but that is really a red herring from what you're actually doing.
 
Look at this beautiful strawman here. Why can't I do that in any debate? Let's do this in the courtrooms. "I think I'm right because of facts and logic, broadly and vaguely speaking, and they think they're right because of lies and superstitions." It's funny, because even if you argued that yours was a proper representation of history, that could be debated within a parameters debate. But you're more ambitious than that. You pair your claims that you represent history with a strawman for their arguments. If only this kind of argumentation was valid in the courts then I'd win every case.

Even if we were to grant that it was ok to criticize billion-dollar industries with impunity, let's just say due to the power imbalance, that's not what you're doing. You're not criticizing the industry, you're criticizing fans and everyday-folk who you think are stupid in believing the arguments that they put forth. So you're trying to set up this picture of a power imbalance, but that is really a red herring from what you're actually doing.
I hope your game in court isn’t this weak. UFC identified each belt holder as HW GOAT. That is a fact. Not a strawman. Using the wrong words can get you in trouble in court. And fans have agreed with the bullshit line. Also a fact. The only argument is whether that fan position is influenced by the marketing line or not. Good luck arguing they are independent-minded geniuses not influenced by the UFC marketing... not working out for you so well up to now.

Of course there is a power imbalance. One message has 0 dollars behind it while the other has a billion behind it. No amount of attacking me will change the fact that fans who swallow the propaganda line are not thinking for themselves. Nice try though. If your argument holds little weight you can always toss a phrase like “strawman” in there in efforts to convince others that 2+2 is actually 5.
 
I hope your game in court isn’t this weak. UFC identified each belt holder as HW GOAT. That is a fact. Not a strawman. Using the wrong words can get you in trouble in court. And fans have agreed with the bullshit line. Also a fact. The only argument is whether that fan position is influenced by the marketing line or not. Good luck arguing they are independent-minded geniuses not influenced by the UFC marketing... not working out for you so well up to now.
Ok, let's dissect this line by line.

No one was disputing the fact that either party identified the HW belt-holder as the goat. Though that could be disputed and brought to a line-by-line review that would be mostly a linguistic debate. The contention is not even that one party could not believe, even in part, the belief in question because of the other party. Your contention is that the UFC's case is unknown to its propagators. Your contention only works under the assumption that the only reason the propagators believe their belief is because the UFC told them. That is the strawman. The strawman is not the content of the argument. The strawman was the rationale behind the argument. If you believe that A for reason B +C, and I say that you believe A for reason C only, C being intentionally insufficient to reach a conclusion. Then that is a strawman.

Your syllogism is another red herring. If you haven't noticed yet, I have a little training in dialectics. You have to be a lot more creative with your fallacies if you want them to work. Let's recall my two points before we restate your syllogism. My two points are A. you shouldn't insult people on questionable grounds, and B. the debate you brought into question is arguably unintelligible. Here's your syllogism.

UFC says A
People who follow the UFC Believe A
Therefore, People believe A because the UFC says A

Ok, even if I don't contest the syllogism. Which I could, but I see a bigger target. What your syllogism needs to say is

UFC says A
A is a stance in an argument X with intelligible parameters and an intelligible path to Truth or Falsity
People who Follow the UFC believe A
People who Follow the UFC cannot know the rationale behind A
Therefore, People believe A because and only because the UFC says A
Therefore, People who believe things because the UFC says them are worthy of insult

Nowhere in your syllogism do you address the question of whether or not the GOAT debate is even an intelligible debate. Nowhere, either, does it logically follow from your syllogism that you are in right standing to insult people. So your syllogism actually says nothing. It is not clear that this debate is intelligible from your syllogism. Even if we granted you that, it's not clear that being wrong on one given topic makes one a moron. We each have many gaps in our knowledge. Even if they were morons, it is not clear from your syllogism that you have the right to insult them. All your syllogism would prove, if we choose to grant it to you, is that people believe something because the UFC says so. Let's move on to the part that interests you more. Why should we grant your syllogism to you? As is, it is underdetermined, because it requires another premise that says must say both that the UFC's argument is unknowable to its propagators and that UFC commentators are not credible sources of information on the topic of MMA. The key point is that your syllogism doesn't make the UFC's grounds for arguing that case irrational or unknowable. Let's first address unknowable. It's not at all clear that the UFC's grounds are unknowable because arguments have existed and have been propagated in these debates to rationalize these viewpoints, which would suggest that, even if they are flawed, these arguments are knowable. In case you are unaware, it is possible to believe a claim both because an expert told you the claim, and because you agreed with some elementary rationale behind the claim. In fact, most of our beliefs are like this. Most of us know very little about the scientific data, tests, or other crucial premises behind the theory of climate change, for example, and yet most of us believe it. The same goes for most medicines. Most people know little about amoxicillin, only that it is an antibiotic and antibiotics can be used to treat infections. We can believe the doctor when he argues that the amoxicillin will treat the infections, not solely because they doctor said so, but also because we know that amoxicillin is an antibiotic, and antibiotics can be used to treat infections. This is, in fact, true for most of our beliefs, because most of us are either field experts in only one subject area, or perhaps in two, but certainly not in every subject area. We may hold a belief both because of some elementary rationale we are given, and because of the authority behind that rationale. Which goes to the first irrationality aspect. Even if they had no rationale, it is not clearly an irrational behavior to believe a field expert. If an expert tells your something about a matter in their field, you will probably believe it. You will probably believe it despite not coming to this information yourself. It isn't clear that this is irrational. It's certainly not apparent that this makes you a foolish person, it's definitely not apparent that this makes you deserving of insult and ridicule. In fact, the opposite might be true. If a field expert told you something and you consciously chose not to believe it, that might also seem irrational to some. The second irrationality aspect is simply that it does not follow from the fact that you believe something that the field expert told you solely because the field expert told it to you (which is the conclusion of your syllogism) that the conditions to prove that the field expert's logic is flawed have been fulfilled. In fact, they two arguments are disjointed and don't seem to impact one another. Whether you believed a certain belief based on an expert's recommendation really has no bearing on whether or not that expert's rationale follows. And that doesn't even begin to address the intelligibility question.

Now let's consider your inevitable counterargument. Your inevitable counter-argument is "but here I have a counter-argument to the UFC's argument." And? If you were unaware, experts disagree all the time, and on any given topic there may be multiple if not infinite plausible answers or theories. And these are to legitimately intelligible questions, such as questions in mathematical fields, not some nebulous question such as "greatest MMA fighter of all time." You may have received instruction from doctor A to take drug X. Doctor B may disagree with the prescription of that drug in the context entirely. He may have reasons behind his disagreement too. That doesn't make you an idiot for believing one thing or another. Disagreements happen all the time. Someone may have one contention, with some rationale, and you may have an opposing contention, with your own rationale. The existence of disagreeing viewpoints falls woefully short of what should be the threshold to insult others or call others idiots.

When it comes down to it, you're just looking for an excuse to insult others you think are inferior to you. I consider that bullying.

Of course there is a power imbalance. One message has 0 dollars behind it while the other has a billion behind it. No amount of attacking me will change the fact that fans who swallow the propaganda line are not thinking for themselves. Nice try though. If your argument holds little weight you can always toss a phrase like “strawman” in there in efforts to convince others that 2+2 is actually 5.
But you aren't calling the message "morons". You aren't calling the propagators "morons". You're calling your fellow man a moron. You keep losing sight, intentionally or unintentionally, of your own arguments and what they require. If you were to say "the UFC is incorrect for X claim, therefore it is an idiotic organization", I would agree. There is a power imbalance. But you aren't attacking the UFC, or the sense in which you are attacking the UFC is indirect.

See, there is that arrogance again. You believe that if my argument was unsound, and others saw it, so long as I threw in what you consider to be a big word, it would appear to others that my argument was sound. You think others are so beneath you in your ability to reason. And that you see the truth. You know what 2+2 is here, though we are not dealing with mathematics in the slightest and there isn't the framework for deliberation on this topic like there is in mathematics (peano axioms, for example). You have such a lowly view of others. It's no wonder you have no qualms insulting them.
 
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Fedor, DC are the GOAT HWs.

Next tier: Reem, Werdum, Cain and
Stipe.

Stipe beat Cormier, Cormier beat Stipe, but Stipe has the record of titles defenses.

How can you argument in Cormier being ahead of Stipe ?
 
Jeez talk about revisionist!
Yes, that was probably at the height of Zuffas anti-Fedor discrediting campaign, which they shoe-horned in anything they could to make Fedor look bad, whilst doing everything they could to push their stock (mostly Anderson) as '#1p4p' or 'GOAT', etc.

Like when introducing Mark Coleman, they showed the few seconds of the fight where Coleman momentarily took Fedor's back, and when he finally lost, Werdum was brought back into the UFC when they took over Strikeforce and the submission was shown on repeat, as was Bigfoot smashing him from mount. Pretty low stuff, but the Hunt brutalizing him for 8 minutes line was probably the worst.

Just business I guess, but it sucked in a lot of people
 
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