Fake BBs - does it really matter?

[PayPerView]

You are attributing a lot of emotional content to my post that isn't there. I'm not in favor of frauds. I personally train with people because I enjoy MMA sparring and I can't accept the danger to my person that comes from training anything that isn't applicable.

I'm sure there are some people who are both, but if you are results oriented, your position in the hierarchy is automatically obtained. You can have no belt and be respected because you roll well and know what you are talking about in no gi. I imagine that if there were no belt colors in gi the same thing would be true there.

The problem of frauds, fake belt rankings, in my opinion comes from people caring about something that shouldn't be as big of a deal. If people weren't exalted for their belt color, people wouldn't fake them.

I didn't feel your post was too emotional. Just flawed in logic. If you're not in favor of frauds why would you defend them? Is that not favoring frauds?

And how do you know what you are learning is applicable or legitimate if there is nothing to validate credibility. YOU may know what is legitimate technique or you may not. But someone who begins BJJ likely does not and this is why we need to make sure the frauds are exposed.

It is not to protect the people who already train or are high level. (Although it does annoy me that someone would do this when I put in 10+ years of training) It is to protect the people who don't know better. Look at all of the examples of exposed fake black belts. How many of them actually had legitimate world class technique and/or a solid competition record?

 

[SummerStriker]

I didn't feel your post was too emotional. Just flawed in logic. If you're not in favor of frauds why would you defend them? Is that not favoring frauds?

And how do you know what you are learning is applicable or legitimate if there is nothing to validate credibility. YOU may know what is legitimate technique or you may not. But someone who begins BJJ likely does not and this is why we need to make sure the frauds are exposed.

It is not to protect the people who already train or are high level. (Although it does annoy me that someone would do this when I put in 10+ years of training) It is to protect the people who don't know better. Look at all of the examples of exposed fake black belts. How many of them actually had legitimate world class technique and/or a solid competition record?

That's all true.

When I try to learn technique, I don't seek out people with credentials. I seek out people in an environment that promotes good technique. What promotes good technique is fear. What scares martial artists is open door sparring policy or...

Eh, the black belt in the video has an open door policy and still couldn't conduct himself on camera. I surrender.

I just have personally found great teachers in BJJ who weren't black belts and understand the insecurity they must feel. I am against the exultation of rank over individuals and think people faking rank is a symptom of the real problem which is cult hierarchy. I do not agree with people lying about rank and have not known a liar to be a secret master.

 

[Byrd]

What what point do you honestly know you are getting "good stuff"? I said before and I'll say it again, you don't know what you don't know yet bud. You still are learning positions and subs and what to do from where that you don't realize the details you are missing that a purple may or may not provide you vs. a seasoned black belt who's been a black belt longer than that purple has been training.

Good point! I have thought about posting the same idea. Most inexperienced take everything at face value and believe what they are told because they really dont know and are afraid to rock the boat.

 

[Byrd]

I just have personally found great teachers in BJJ who weren't black belts and understand the insecurity they must feel. I am against the exultation of rank over individuals and think people faking rank is a symptom of the real problem which is cult hierarchy. I do not agree with people lying about rank and have not known a liar to be a secret master.

No one said that all great teachers had to be BB's, in fact it has been agreed by most here that great teachers can be of other belts. But they have to be legit to be great teachers regardless of rank. No one has mentioned anyone that faked their rank is a great instructor.

 

[Rod1]

There aren't too many making a living lying about benching 330 and squatting 475 unless they are selling juice.

No one likes a lier except other liers. Its one thing to embellish a little, its another to just flat out lie to rip someone off. That is whats going on here. What if someone in your family was being trained by this guy?

Already answered that in my previous post.

Yes, its quite a sad thing to have a lot of talent and years being wasted on frauds, but not all fake BBs are running gyms.

 

[Rod1]

Of course it matters. Someone claiming a fake rank is basically saying "I think your efforts were worthless. The hardship you went through means nothing. The skill you have means nothing. I, as an untrained individual, deserve equal merit in your art by virtue of wearing the same belt".

Do people not realise the miles that get placed on your body (and car), the time away from family, exercising, injuries, rehab, comps, $$$ etc?

It's a slap in the face. Fuck off with that shit. You are not equal, you will never be equal. You deserve ridicule and scorn.

I dont need someone to tell me how good my efforts are, i see them and feel them whenever i go to train.

 

[lechien]

I don't understand. Once the lie is exposed, isn't it exposed? I've never personally been in a fraud environment to my knowledge. Even if the "traitors leave," isn't the jig up?

Nah, It does not,

They just re invent themselves...usually try to bs about some new affiliation to look valid one time until they get caught again and again.

 

[combatcvic]

TLDR; I personally just feel offended at fake BB, knowing im a real brown belt who's going on 10 yrs of training. I know how hard this journey is, its demanding, the learning never ends, as a whole its grown is still on the rise.

The black belts under my instructor have been training at least 9 years before being promoted, and i know all timelines vary from academy to academy, but putting in that time makes the belt so much more valuable. Seeing people with fake black belts dilutes the art in my opinion. and by fake i mean gave themselve a black belt, got it from someone who's not a true jiu jitsu black belt, or was promoted early under someone for political reasons, meaning they were being sent to open an affiliate somewhere, because we all know that happens.


venting done. =)


*side note, I've heard there are some very old school bjj instructors out there from brazil that have blurred lineage, meaning they were judo black belts and somehow became bjj blackbelts pretty fast. Its known to some old bjjs guys who were in the area at that time and it never really became an issue. so this whole fake black belt thing goes way back.

 

[Ippwnage]

I don't quite understand the internet's obsession with fake BBs in BJJ. As long as the guy isn't running a cult or ruining people's lives, does it really matter?

I was under the impression that the whole point of BJJ competing/live-training environment, was that you can demonstrate your capabilities in a live setting. Does the belt really matter that much?

While I understand the impulse to dojo storm the guy and make a condescending viral video (rorian gracie style). I just wish it didn't come along with a self-righteous attitude.

successful troll
these guys never learn


you have any baby dela riva secrets?

 

[Matsukaze]

I found this thread interesting as I couldn't understand why anyone would claim such a fake rank, black or any rank, especially with todays technology. Facebook, email, and the accessibility at which the truth could be brought to light. It happened in my home town too, were some guy, no one has ever heard of, put an add in the local newspaper claiming to have been promoted to black belt by "such and such Gracie".

I looked on the Gracie guys website where he lists all his black belts personally given by him, and there were many, and this guys name wasn't listed anywhere..

It's just sad for folks like that..

 

[nefti]

When I try to learn technique, I don't seek out people with credentials. I seek out people in an environment that promotes good technique. What promotes good technique is fear. What scares martial artists is open door sparring policy or...

An open door policy does not mean much, there are "grappling gyms" with open door policies that have no clue what they are doing.

I just have personally found great teachers in BJJ who weren't black belts and understand the insecurity they must feel. I am against the exultation of rank over individuals and think people faking rank is a symptom of the real problem which is cult hierarchy. I do not agree with people lying about rank and have not known a liar to be a secret master.

If they are as great as you say, they will get their black belts in due time.

 

[dazed863]

That's all true.

When I try to learn technique, I don't seek out people with credentials. I seek out people in an environment that promotes good technique. What promotes good technique is fear. What scares martial artists is open door sparring policy or...

Eh, the black belt in the video has an open door policy and still couldn't conduct himself on camera. I surrender.

I just have personally found great teachers in BJJ who weren't black belts and understand the insecurity they must feel. I am against the exultation of rank over individuals and think people faking rank is a symptom of the real problem which is cult hierarchy. I do not agree with people lying about rank and have not known a liar to be a secret master.

if a person isnt a black belt in bjj but has great technique then why go around saying they are? why not open a gym and teach and attract students and win competitions to legitimately earn their students tuition? Even better do so under a legit instructor and work towards earning a real belt that recognized and cant be questioned?

the answer to those questions is simple, its because they cant. bjj works and it attracts people from all walks of life to come train in an art thats and effective grappling style. when you hear "bjj gym" and see a "bjj black belt" it really says something and people will blindly follow a person (especially when they dont have much experience to validate what they are being taught) only to find out the blue or purple belt theyve received isnt recognized when they are forced to move gyms. ive seen that happen personally.

ill speak a little bit about my own experience. ive been forced to move a few times so ive experienced a wide array of bjj gyms these past few years. my first instructor got his black belt from roletta and was an absolute beast. ask the guy about any position and immediately he would give you clear guidance that worked even from odd crazy positions you might find yourself in. its not because he was a black belt and it wasnt because he was gifted its because he spent years on the mat under a legit instructor and his bjj black belt represented that.

flash forward a few years and i was in a gym training under a guy who couldnt validate his black belt because he said the person who belted him is now dead. im a blue belt at the time (and still am) but he wasnt hitting key fundamentals i had been taught before. i kept quite and was happy to have a place to roll. but while his students did well in competition locally, if they had been where i was from before (central florida) they would have had a much tougher time. i was a no stripe blue hanging with and catching purples and on the same level as his four stripe blue belts. again a red flag in my mind.

anyway left pretty quickly and found a legit bb who i train under now.

anyway to bring the wall of text around here, while you might be technically sound in certain positions and able to compete well it doesnt mean your technically as well rounded or able to teach bjj at the level as a certified legit black belt instructor. theres a big difference between legit and non-legit. yea the spectrum is broad but as a baseline theres no comparison comparing a guy who rolls well and has a good competition game from a guy who has spent 10+ years under a legit instructor in many different positions.

 

[SummerStriker]

For the record, again, I am not in favor of frauds. I am speaking out against the cult hierarchy and the exaltation of belts which entices people to lie about their credentials.

 

[SummerStriker]

An open door policy does not mean much, there are "grappling gyms" with open door policies that have no clue what they are doing.

Then everyone will see and the belt won't matter. That's the great thing about martial arts. Anyone can say anything they want but at some point you will have a chance to put up or shut up.

 

[nefti]

Then everyone will see and the belt won't matter. That's the great thing about martial arts. Anyone can say anything they want but at some point you will have a chance to put up or shut up.

no, it's usually a case of the blind leading the blind in those places. So the students have no idea that they are learning crap. Also, alot of these schools have instructors that are great at spinning stuff. Like spinning it to "im not bad, this visitor is just that good" and vise a versa.

 

[SummerStriker]

That's the point of the open door. If someone comes in and says, "I'm Mr. Blah, Blah Belt Under Mister Blah Blah Blah," you can roll with him and see how you do.

For that matter, like, every Karate, Judo, MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai and TKD gym within 50 miles of me has an open sparring day once a week to once a month and I've been to most of them. There are only a couple places I can think of that don't and they are the usual suspects where no one cares anyway. You got to play the game by the gym rules while in their house, but you can see what they do. If you want to test yourself, you can always go do that. Even if you don't, before long they will be in your house, looking for you.

Where the rubber meets the road, there isn't a whole lot of slack. It isn't the blind leading the blind. Everyone knows you. Everyone talks about everyone else. Everyone goes to train at everyone else's schools or their students do. If a school sucks, everyone would talk about it. People are proud of where they train, but it is my opinion that the open rolling and open sparring weeded the garden a long time ago.

Maybe it is different in other places. I've taken a lot of martial arts while on vacation and no one has ever been closed to me. Everyone kind of puts on their pants the same way.

 

[nefti]

great in theory, no so in real life application. Either way, bjj is a belted marital art. Belts are a part of bjj. There is a reason why you get certifications and certificates even in submission grappling (ie csw) it's to have someone vouch for you. Is it the end all be all? no. But it's better than nothing.

 

[Bunkai]

Does you're work experience matter when applying for CEO? Yes.
When applying for janitor? Not really.

Does your military service record matter when you were in the reserves one summer? Not really.

Does it matter when you claim to be a Purple Heart medal of Valor awarded navy seal team six member? Yup.

Does it matter from a McDojo? No.

Does it matter in jits?

Yes.

If you are you are.
If you're not you're not.

That matters.

 

[SummerStriker]

great in theory, no so in real life application.

I'll agree to disagree with you. My experience is that an open door is a sign of people who are confident because of experience. People who are scared stay closed. People who are unafraid are unafraid because they train hard and well. The blind who were mistaken get on board with better training or close up. It only takes once.

 

[nefti]

I'll agree to disagree with you. My experience is that an open door is a sign of people who are confident because of experience. People who are scared stay closed. People are unafraid are unafraid because they train hard and well.

not really, i know legit gyms that don't exactly encourage an "open door" policy. While it seems good in theory, in practice you realy don't want any crazy tom, dick, or harry coming in. People have bad hygiene, spread staph/ringworm, spazz out, cause problems ect.