explanation for Cain's strategy in the 4th

Dionysian

Dionysian

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Didn't get home til very late last night and was still wired from all the great fights. I went and saw them with some friends, the MT guy saying some silly things that were refuted by my grappling brain, the food being decent, the fights being amazing. Figured (as always) the worst from Sherdog but thought that, at most, it'd be complaining about something on the undercard that I missed.

Anyway, I get here and see 800 threads about wall'n'stall of all things. Worse than anything I could have expected, congrats Sherdog. Clearly none of you guys saw JDS getting finished for the first time in the UFC and brutalized. Clearly the most damage-inflincting-wall-n-stall in the history of mankind.

But I was ALSO shocked that no one pointed out how odd the 4th round was for Cain. People I was with were saying it and we were all agreeing... it was bizarre. JDS was clearly not recovered from that beating in the 3rd. He did not have his hands up. Every single shot Cain was throwing seemed to be landing without defense. Yet Cain would throw a short 1-2 then immediately clinch, almost as if he wanted to hold up a recognizably out-on-his-feet JDS. How else can you explain this other than intentionally prolonging his punishment??? Not wall'n'stall of ANY sort... something entirely different.

I had to imagine Cain's corner was screaming for the finish since JDS had 0 offense. You could explain the weird clinch giving an out-on-his-feet JDS time to recover at the end of the 3rd... Cain was weary of going for broke and giving JDS an opening for a Kongo-Barry shot. But ALL of the 4th doing the same? When JDS was clearly ready to be finished? To me it looked like nothing short of sadism. I figured he was sending a message loud and clear: "NO MORE REMATCHES EVER AGAIN. DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU AGAIN. IT ISN'T GOOD FOR YOUR CAREER" Especially when he did it 10 times in a row when JDS was clearly going down, AND THEN finished at the end of the 5th just as I predicted he would... torture as long as possible but also maximize damage and finish him off for the utmost effect.

Did anyone else see this happening other than the guys at the house I was at? I have been a huge Cain fan for years and am shocked no one else on Sherdog saw it this way... all he needed to do to finish JDS in the 4th was disengage and strike for longer than a 1-2. You KNOW Herb was itching to stop it ASAP and that was ALL he was looking for the entire time. The question is why he didn't when JDS couldn't even raise his hands much less throw effective counters during those flurries.


EDIT:
Video where Cain says he does indeed pass up finishes sometimes in order to intentionally punish JDS, from 2:50-3:50

Thanks to tonycpa for the link!
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure. Cain still has tremendous respect for Junior's ability to land one kill shot. Possibly, he was clinching out of habit too.
 
I hope Cain isn't that level of cruel.

Honestly, I think it was more of Cain being cautious and sticking to the gameplan. JDS did land shots a few times when they separated, the most notable being an uppercut in round 3 or 4, I can't remember. He seemed content to ride out another decision but pounced on JDS when he was face first on the mat.
 
Many saw it that way... I also dont get it. Junior had his eye shut, no reflexes almost, barely walked. Perhaps he had some power left but with Cains cardio he couldve finished him at a whim. I dont get it either. He has this weird gameplan it seems that until the opponent does not completely give out so he can easily without fuss and danger to him unload on him, he wont do it. Annoying and kind of sadistic yeah.

Kevin Randleman said:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg[/MG]idiot[/QUOTE]

you really are a moron
Click to expand...
 
Not this "punsishing" nonsense again...

He did it because he knew that even as a zombie JDS could knock him out. Simple as that. In every interview when asked about finishing, Cain repeats his philosophy: 'I don't hunt for finishes. If it's there, of course I finish, but that's not my ultimate goal.' He's way too smart and patient to get anxious when he sees JDS hurt. He still respects his power and will not abandon his gameplan, which was working brilliantly, just because JDS was on his last legs.
 
Rex Kwon Do said:
Not this "punsishing" nonsense again...

He did it because he knew that even as a zombie JDS could knock him out. Simple as that. In every interview when asked about finishing, Cain repeats his philosophy: 'I don't hunt for finishes. If it's there, of course I finish, but that's not my ultimate goal.' He's way too smart and patient to get anxious when he sees JDS hurt. He still respects his power and will not abandon his gameplan, which was working brilliantly, just because JDS was on his last legs.
Click to expand...

Yeah but this is the thing that was throwing me off... it WASN'T his gameplan until precisely when JDS was ready to go down. When JDS was FRESH he was attacking on the feet, TD attempt, attacking on the feet, TD attempt. Pressure pressure pressure.

When JDS was DEAD it was cleanly landing a 1-2 with 0 offense JDS, clinch to hold him up, 1-2 cleanly landing on 0 offense JDS, clinch to stop Herb from stepping in, 1-2, etc. Why the change once JDS is LESS likely to counter... especially a change in the opposite direction?? I don't think an argument can be made for the 2nd fight being a "punishment" (thought that was silly) but after the 3rd round of the 3rd fight it certainly looked the case...
 
Cain has incredible cardio but he is still a HW. At that point throwing anything more than 2 or 3 punches at the time prob drain the hell out of him. He was being smart and saving the energy just in case it was needed. He was comfortable and not gonna take a risk that wasnt needed. He had JDS right where he wanted him.
 
I was watching the fight with my bro and we both didn't understand why Cain would land a vicious 1-2, stagger JDS and then instantly clinch. It reminded me of GSP vs. Condit. GSP would land a 4 or 5 hit combo have Condit covering up, clinch and takedown. It was probably just Cain's gameplan and regardless of what shape JDS was in he was still going to follow it. Land punches and smother him.
 
While I agree with TS that the people claiming "wall n stall" are absolutely retarded, especially after he hit him clean so many times, and then ACTUALLY FINISHED THE FIGHT in the 5th!...I don't think Cain was trying to "prolong the punishment" as you say. I just think that he knows JDS' power, he knows how flukey this sport can be and he didn't want to give JDS a chance to KO him (again). It might have been frustrating to watch, but in the end he finished the fight anyway and proved he's the better fighter.
 
I think Cain's strategy was if JDS threw punches, he would clinch, and that what he did all night. He stuck to his game plan, and got the win.
JDS punches were still very dangerous.
 
I agree with TS it's odd, I've trained boxing myself, and after the knockdown in round 3, some attacks were to be a simple "finsh off", JDS completely stunned, and uncapable of fighting back, just go 1,2,3,4 uppercut, left hook, KO. For some reason Cain decided to abort the attack, there wasn't any risk.
 
Junior still had power in his punches. Cain wasn't going to risk getting koed standing and banging with JDS...Even if Junior was a zombie.
 
Cain addressed this in the post-fight Presser.
 
Dionysian said:
Especially when he did it 10 times in a row when JDS was clearly going down, AND THEN finished at the end of the 5th just as I predicted he would... torture as long as possible but also maximize damage and finish him off for the utmost effect.

Did anyone else see this happening other than the guys at the house I was at? I have been a huge Cain fan for years and am shocked no one else on Sherdog saw it this way... all he needed to do to finish JDS in the 4th was disengage and strike for longer than a 1-2. You KNOW Herb was itching to stop it ASAP and that was ALL he was looking for the entire time. The question is why he didn't when JDS couldn't even raise his hands much less throw effective counters during those flurries.
Click to expand...

That theory kinda falls down when it was ultimately JDS that face/head planted himself to pretty much end the fight. For all we know it would have went to the judges otherwise. That's not to say Cain didn't totally dominate JDS, but I don't buy into this being some sort of grand scheme that Cain played out.
 
Dionysian said:
What did he say/what time was it at?
Click to expand...

Nothing very useful, just that he wasnt looking for a KO and that he felt JDS still had power. "if KO comes it comes". He wasnt goin to go looking for it.

It seems unless you hit him over the head with it he wasnt gonna take it.

You have conference highlights video at mmafighting.com and you can check it there.
 
Ronwah said:
That theory kinda falls down when it was ultimately JDS that face/head planted himself to pretty much end the fight. For all we know it would have went to the judges otherwise. That's not to say Cain didn't totally dominate JDS, but I don't buy into this being some sort of grand scheme that Cain played out.
Click to expand...
Guess it was possible that an alternate explanation was that he got tired aswell. But in the first three he was definitely following a different gameplan mostly.

TTech said:
Nothing very useful, just that he wasnt looking for a KO and that he felt JDS still had power. "if KO comes it comes". He wasnt goin to go looking for it.

It seems unless you hit him over the head with it he wasnt gonna take it.

You have conference highlights video at mmafighting.com and you can check it there.
Click to expand...
Hm weird for a guy with as many KOs as Cain has to say that but thanks for the info
 
JDS was landing good elbows and punches of his own when he got some separation. He respected his power, and didn't want to risk getting hit.
 
Dionysian said:
Didn't get home til very late last night and was still wired from all the great fights. I went and saw them with some friends, the MT guy saying some silly things that were refuted by my grappling brain, the food being decent, the fights being amazing. Figured (as always) the worst from Sherdog but thought that, at most, it'd be complaining about something on the undercard that I missed.

Anyway, I get here and see 800 threads about wall'n'stall of all things. Worse than anything I could have expected, congrats Sherdog. Clearly none of you guys saw JDS getting finished for the first time in the UFC and brutalized. Clearly the most damage-inflincting-wall-n-stall in the history of mankind.

But I was ALSO shocked that no one pointed out how odd the 4th round was for Cain. People I was with were saying it and we were all agreeing... it was bizarre. JDS was clearly not recovered from that beating in the 3rd. He did not have his hands up. Every single shot Cain was throwing seemed to be landing without defense. Yet Cain would throw a short 1-2 then immediately clinch, almost as if he wanted to hold up a recognizably out-on-his-feet JDS. How else can you explain this other than intentionally prolonging his punishment??? Not wall'n'stall of ANY sort... something entirely different.

I had to imagine Cain's corner was screaming for the finish since JDS had 0 offense. You could explain the weird clinch giving an out-on-his-feet JDS time to recover at the end of the 3rd... Cain was weary of going for broke and giving JDS an opening for a Kongo-Barry shot. But ALL of the 4th doing the same? When JDS was clearly ready to be finished? To me it looked like nothing short of sadism. I figured he was sending a message loud and clear: "NO MORE REMATCHES EVER AGAIN. DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU AGAIN. IT ISN'T GOOD FOR YOUR CAREER" Especially when he did it 10 times in a row when JDS was clearly going down, AND THEN finished at the end of the 5th just as I predicted he would... torture as long as possible but also maximize damage and finish him off for the utmost effect.

Did anyone else see this happening other than the guys at the house I was at? I have been a huge Cain fan for years and am shocked no one else on Sherdog saw it this way... all he needed to do to finish JDS in the 4th was disengage and strike for longer than a 1-2. You KNOW Herb was itching to stop it ASAP and that was ALL he was looking for the entire time. The question is why he didn't when JDS couldn't even raise his hands much less throw effective counters during those flurries.
Click to expand...

 
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