Ending MMA “leagues” would allow for better pay.

[kflo]

I mostly mean the "well, you were injured for 6 months last year, so we're adding 6 months to your contract" crap. Which, from everything I can gather, they just sorta started doing a few years ago and justify it as a "new interpretation" of the contract language. Language that hadn't actually changed.

Champions Clause is a bit more understandable.

fighters shouldn't get to expire their contract through injury. the contracts are primarily for # of fights with time being a control on how quickly they play out (and ensure fighters can't be shelved by the org).

 

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

If Diana would stop being greedy and just raise the base pay for the prelim and mid level guys hed have a lot less complaining.

A thought exercise I've asked a few times and no one has ever responded to: if you could double fighter pay tomorrow, how would you distribute it?

Doubling would make fight pay go from 20% gross to 40% gross.

Option 1: Triple all pay under $60k, double mid tier pay, and give no increases to the top fighters, right?

But we all know that'll never happen. What will happen is:

Option 2: Guys like Jones and McGregor would just make even more.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's just a thought exercise. Cheers.

 

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

fighters shouldn't get to expire their contract through injury. the contracts are primarily for # of fights with time being a control on how quickly they play out (and ensure fighters can't be shelved by the org).

I can't tell whether you're defending UFC's practice or saying it shouldn't continue. All I'm saying is, if the contract is for 4 fights in 2 years and the fighter hasn't fought for 2 years, the contract should be over. Not "extended" because they turned down fights or had a 180 day medical suspension last year. And if the judicial branch puts an end to the practice of the promoter unilaterally extending the contracts, I'll call it a win.

Notice how low my bar for a win is, btw

 

[kflo]

Their pay is comparable or better than their mma counterparts in the quartile. There are very limited segments where boxers earn less than mma fighters if you look at AC purses, and that's in the upper middle class area usually, not prelim card fighters. People get confused because boxing prelim fighters are the equivalent of mma regional fighters, not UFC prelim fighters. Allt his isn't too say that lower tier boxers and mma fighters shouldn't be paid more.

on one of the last cards with published payouts, UFC Fight Night: Benavidez vs. Figueiredo, spike carlyle was a featherweight with an 8-1 record. he had gone 9-5 as an ammy. he made $20k for the fight. do you think there are alot of 135 lb boxers with those credential making $20k?

 

[avenue94]

on one of the last cards with published payouts, UFC Fight Night: Benavidez vs. Figueiredo, spike carlyle was a featherweight with an 8-1 record. he had gone 9-5 as an ammy. he made $20k for the fight. do you think there are alot of 135 lb boxers with those credential making $20k?

Why would I look at an anecdotal example when I can just compare purse data released by ACs and then compare quartile (or decile) vs quartile (or decile)? 8-1 boxing record is far greener than an 8-1 mma record most of the time.

 

[kflo]

I can't tell whether you're defending UFC's practice or saying it shouldn't continue. All I'm saying is, if the contract is for 4 fights in 2 years and the fighter hasn't fought for 2 years, the contract should be over. Not "extended" because they turned down fights or had a 180 day medical suspension last year. And if the judicial branch puts an end to the practice of the promoter unilaterally extending the contracts, I'll call it a win.

Notice how low my bar for a win is, btw

the contract is a performance contract. you can't just sit out and expire your contract. and i don't think this is a ufc specific practice. bellator also has similar tolling provisions.

other sports contracts also extend if you refuse to perform. injury is different.

i don't really care if tolling went away but i don't think it's too unfair to have to fight out your contract.

 

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

the contract is a performance contract. you can't just sit out and expire your contract. and i don't think this is a ufc specific practice. bellator also has similar tolling provisions.

other sports contracts also extend if you refuse to perform. injury is different.

i don't really care if tolling went away but i don't think it's too unfair to have to fight out your contract.

What's unfair (IMO only of course) is having the more powerful party unilaterally decide one day that the language in a contract should be interpreted differently (more advantageous for that party), and then force the other party to respect that new interpretation.

Anyway, it was one of the major points in the case, and the case was not dismissed. So I suppose in a few years we'll see what one judge thinks about it. It doesn't really matter what you and I think, or if we agree or not. Cheers.

 

[kflo]

What's unfair (IMO only of course) is having the more powerful party unilaterally decide one day that the language in a contract should be interpreted differently (more advantageous for that party), and then force the other party to respect that new interpretation.

Anyway, it was one of the major points in the case, and the case was not dismissed. So I suppose in a few years we'll see what one judge thinks about it.

i don't think that is happening today. i do think it was bullshit that silva was tolling because he heard guys were injured, and some of his behaviors certainly help the plaintiffs.

 

[avenue94]

A thought exercise I've asked a few times and no one has ever responded to: if you could double fighter pay tomorrow, how would you distribute it?

Doubling would make fight pay go from 20% gross to 40% gross.

Option 1: Triple all pay under $60k, double mid tier pay, and give no increases to the top fighters, right?

But we all know that'll never happen. What will happen is:

Option 2: Guys like Jones and McGregor would just make even more.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's just a thought exercise. Cheers.

Well the napkin math is, 40 percent of gross gives us about an extra $200 million to play around with for fight. I would personally cut the roster size in half (this won't happen because of ESPN commitments), so that should give you the ability to increase pay across the board. Just straight up, 600 fighters is way too much chaff for me as a fan, there just aren't 600 elite level fighters in the world at the moment. If I wanted to watch regional fighters, I'd watch regional promotions.

 

[kflo]

A thought exercise I've asked a few times and no one has ever responded to: if you could double fighter pay tomorrow, how would you distribute it?

Doubling would make fight pay go from 20% gross to 40% gross.

Option 1: Triple all pay under $60k, double mid tier pay, and give no increases to the top fighters, right?

But we all know that'll never happen. What will happen is:

Option 2: Guys like Jones and McGregor would just make even more.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's just a thought exercise. Cheers.

If the ufc was your company, what would you do? What would you do if you were just CEO of the ufc and it was a public company?

 

[You Will Vote For Dreyga]

Well the napkin math is, 40 percent of gross gives us about an extra $200 million to play around with for fight. I would personally cut the roster size in half (this won't happen because of ESPN commitments), so that should give you the ability to increase pay across the board. Just straight up, 600 fighters is way too much chaff for me as a fan, there just aren't 600 elite level fighters in the world at the moment. If I wanted to watch regional fighters, I'd watch regional promotions.

How are you for fighters getting paid more while also being okay with half of the roster being cut?

That’s alot of fighters making 0k/0k

 

[Tapioca Cold]

No. That's what ruined boxing. Sure fighters got paid but most fights happen way beyond the time that they should.

Also you start off your argument with the exact opposite opinion of what you stated. That's not a good look.

 

[avenue94]

How are you for fighters getting paid more while also being okay with half of the roster being cut?

That’s alot of fighters making 0k/0k

Because they can go fight for regional promotions or they just might not be cut out the sport. The UFC is supposed to be the best talent in the world, I'm expecting to see that when I tune in, not regional level talent filling swathes of the card. And it's not like the UFC doubled the roster's size because they wanted to employ more fighters out of the kindness of their hearts, it was so they could give ESPN all the cards they promised.

I have no qualms with a fighter like, say, Mickey Gall having to go through the regionals or wash out of the sport if they're just not cut out for it.

 

[kflo]

Why would I look at an anecdotal example when I can just compare purse data released by ACs and then compare quartile (or decile) vs quartile (or decile)? 8-1 boxing record is far greener than an 8-1 mma record most of the time.

Because your AC data doesn’t have any context.

How does mma measure against boxing for the deciles the ufc plays in?

And why wouldn’t comparing like for like matter? Shouldn’t the path to get there matter? Shouldn’t context matter?

 

[kflo]

How are you for fighters getting paid more while also being okay with half of the roster being cut?

That’s alot of fighters making 0k/0k

It is fascinating.....

 

[You Will Vote For Dreyga]

Because they can go fight for regional promotions or they just might not be cut out the sport. The UFC is supposed to be the best talent in the world, I'm expecting to see that when I tune in, not regional level talent filling swathes of the card. And it's not like the UFC doubled the roster's size because they wanted to employ more fighters out of the kindness of their hearts, it was so they could give ESPN all the cards they promised.

I have no qualms with a fighter like, say, Mickey Gall having to go through the regionals or wash out of the sport if they're just not cut out for it.

Cold Blooded



Not gonna lie. Didn’t expect that opinion from you. I see your point though I find it contradictory

However what would you say to the idea that the reason the UFC has so many of the worlds best fighters is because of its massive roster.

I mean most of the UFC champions, I would say everyone except Jan and Isreal, were nothing but regional nobodies when the UFC signed them.

They just happened to survive the meat grinder and make their way to the top. Cutting down the roster undermines the ability to find the best guys.

 

[rodkek]

I’m not saying to end promotions such as The UFC or Bellator or ONE, those should be kept and so should the belts (we need more belts in my opinion). But the exclusivity of fighters and the lack of cross promotional matches is what hinders mma fighters from touching real money. There needs to be a mma oversight commission that allows for purse bids and open negotiations amongst fighters and fights. We just seen this in boxing with Triller outbidding Top Rank for Teofimo Lopez’s next fight even though top rank is Teo’s promoter. (Also the fight is a mandatory and not even a big fight).

imagine If Dhiego Lima and Usman were to have an open purse bid for a fight? Or Jon Jones and Francis Ngannou?

I understand that boxing or Conor Mcgregor money isn’t exactly sustainable for mma but I truly want these fighters to get better pay and have a CHANCE to touch some real life money.

idgaf i want everyone 2 be in 1 place

 

[Captain Herb]

Aren’t purse bids only for title fights when the mandated challenger can’t agree to terms with the champion? How would this work in mma when the titles are with the promotions?

You take the titles, rankings and exclusive contracts away from the promotions. It's that simple. If the UFC wanted to put on a show, they would have to go out, get the fighters, and pay them market price.

 

[avenue94]

Cold Blooded



Not gonna lie. Didn’t expect that opinion from you. I see your point.

I'm pretty honest about it. My argument for higher fighter pay is usually couched in market value, and an understanding that you will be paying mid and lower card fighters at a loss essentially just so you have future prospects (if you don't too many of your prospects will wash out and you will lose too many stars). I'm not even completely sure putting reginal talent on UFC cards helps those fighters, a lot of them are better off acclimating to the sport and trade away from all the bright lights and pressure that comes with a UFC slot.

Or I suppose if you want the moral argument, why pay people who aren't cut out for the position for their work ya know? It's not helping them, they'd be better off having a normal job usually instead of taking brain damage for not great pay.

Or to put it really crudely, if I'm watching a baseball game, I'm expecting to see the MLB team, not 2 of their guys, then the practice squad and some of their regional affiliate players filling out positions.

However what would you say to the idea that the reason the UFC has so many of the worlds best fighters is because of its massive roster.

Here are things that I think most fans can agree on: Since the Strikeforce purchase, the UFC has had most of the elite talent in the sport. They've loosened their grip some in the few years and have a slightly smaller share of elite talent. Yet at the same time, the roster has doubled in size in the past 5 or so years. Yes, the sport is growing, but the pool of elite fighters or just fighters period clearly didn't double in that time frame.

I mean most of the UFC champions, I would say everyone except Jan and Isreal, were nothing but regional nobodies when the UFC signed them.

And that's where scouting comes in. Kamaru was a blue chip prospect before he ever got to TUF, ditto with Ngannou, Colk, Sterling, Yan. Even if the roster was half the size, those guys would have been signed either way. Look, scouting isn't easy in this sport and guys slip through the cracks, but the UFC generally can pick them up most of the time.

Cutting down the roster undermines the ability to find the best guys.

Not a 1 for 1 analogy, but most sports teams have a fixed size, and they still find the best guys. Talent rises to the top, even if sometimes one or two prospects slip through the cracks. And it's not like there are promoters than can outbid the UFC most of the time. Besides, the UFC already uses this model to an extent, they used WSOF and Invicta as feeder leagues.

 

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

If the ufc was your company, what would you do? What would you do if you were just CEO of the ufc and it was a public company?

I will say this. Thinking about how to distribute 2x the money made me realize how complex it is.

Because everyone complaining today that $12k/$12k is too low, tomorrow would still complain that $24k/$24k is still too low.