International Egypt sentences girls who posted TikTok videos to 2-3 years prison. Crime : violating public morals

Yeah I just don't agree really, just not that wedded to secularism as a cultural project. Its nice for states to be secular so there's no favoritism by the government apparatus towards one religion but the society should be free to be as religious as it wants. And Egypt is a very conservative society so the people should be free to elect conservatives leaders so long as they remain within certain limits. And I definitely disagree that we need more men like Nasser, like it or not the Brotherhood is often the most organized, effective, and pragmatic opposition movement in many Muslim countries and in many cases they are non-violent and push for democracy as well.

The states of the region would be better off trying to work with them rather than taking Sisi's scorched earth approach. Heck the MB probably ran a larger social welfare network that the government and yet since 2013 many of the various charitable organizations they run have been cracked down on. So not only does the government suck at providing a social safety net, they're actively repressing the social movement that provides the only real social safety network in the country.
Fair enough. I understand that societal dynamics are such that secularism is inherently more authoritarian in that region than in the West. Trying to have a truly secular society there is like trying to have a theocracy here, it just goes against the mores of the vast majority of the population.
 
I could be wrong but Nasser never banned the hijab. He was against it being mandatory.
Yes I believe that is true to be fair. I didn't claim he did but I may have implied it without meaning to.
He wall also among the most repressive leaders and also one of the most popular among Egyptians ever.

People, or I guess, certain cultures will allow you to step all over them if you make your country look “strong” by fighting outsiders. Go figure.
That is also true though to cite the Copt girl from earlier she had a very negative view of him. Said he was just a farmer and no one wants a farmer running their country. I'm not some Nasserite but had this elitist undertone to it.

I'm shitting on her a lot but to be fair she did love her country. She said more than once she had no plans to stay in America and was definitely going back. I can respect someone who comes from a shithole country like Egypt, studies in America, but then thinks "think is fun but no way I'm not going back eventually.
Fair enough. I understand that societal dynamics are such that secularism is inherently more authoritarian in that region than in the West. Trying to have a truly secular society there is like trying to have a theocracy here, it just goes against the mores of the vast majority of the population.
When it comes to secularism I make the distinction between state and society. The state should be secular, either de jure like the US with its Establishment clause or de facto like in the UK or Denmark which technically have a state church but do not in any tangible day to day way play favorites and enshrine freedom of religion.

Society should be free to follow the organic trends and movements that swirl within it though personally I think its good to have a minimum level of religiosity in society. I'm not saying we have to go full Egypt/Pakistan but maybe some brakes on the progressive race to the bottom would be nice.
 
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When it comes to secularism I make the distinction between state and society. The state should be secular, either de facto like the US with its Establishment clause or de jure like in the UK or Denmark which technically have a state church but do not in any tangible day to day way play favorites and enshrine freedom of religion.

Society should be free to follow the organic trends and movements that swirl within it though personally I think its good to have a minimum level of religiosity in society. I'm not saying we have to go full Egypt/Pakistan but maybe some brakes on the progressive race to the bottom would be nice.
Although I'm not religious, I would actually agree. I kind of feel like it's a "problem" that takes care of itself, though. Viewing it through a US-based lens, I feel like we're certainly religious enough and don't envision us becoming irreligious as a whole. There's actually more prejudice in politics against atheists than there is towards Muslims. Jewish atheist politicians like Bernie Sanders conveniently hide behind their Jewish ethnicity and culture. Obama, Trump, Clinton and McCain are likely closet atheists, admitting it publicly would have been career suicide. Better to admit you're a homosexual than to admit that.

Even in states with a recent history of state-enforced atheism, like Russia or Cuba, there's a relatively large degree of religiosity among the populace. I suppose a notable exception is Scandinavia, where religion was never repressed legally, but culturally they developed to be irreligious, both right and left. And while some of the secular religions there (and here) are ridiculous, they're still better off than people in pretty much any other place on the globe, so I don't really see it as a big problem. I've certainly seen more problems with societies that are over-religious as opposed to under-religious, although that may be more correlation than causation.
 
I could be wrong but Nasser never banned the hijab. He was against it being mandatory.

He wall also among the most repressive leaders and also one of the most popular among Egyptians ever.

People, or I guess, certain cultures will allow you to step all over them if you make your country look “strong” by fighting outsiders. Go figure.

Nasser was a Pan Arabist , a secular Nationalist. The Western powers supported the Islamists to destroy Nasser and Pan Arabism. One wonders if we would be having soo many Jihadi and Wahabhi issues if the West did not support the Islamists and the Sauds .

Secular Arabs did try to tamp down Islamism and change society, but the West thwarted them. Then fast forward a few decades and we got the same Western foreign policy establishment , specifically the Neoconservatives, like Thomas Friedmann, telling Americans that Islamism is the problem and Arab need to embrace modern secular democracy.

This is not to say absent Western support for Islamists the Arab world would have moved away from sectarian and tribal mindsets, just that the West played an important part in nurturing the Jihadi / Wahabhi monster. Egyptian actor Omar Shariff once said that democracy would not work in the Arab world because Arabs are tribal.
 
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2 years prison and fines of $18K . 2 girls have received this sentence .
3 other girls received 2 years prison.
Another woman sentenced to 3 years

Their crime : violating public morals.


https://www.dw.com/en/egyptian-tiktok-stars-jailed/a-54371869

In their rulings, which can still be appealed, the judges accused the defendants of posting "indecent" dance videos and "violating the values and principles of the Egyptian family." The women incited "debauchery" and also encouraged human trafficking, according to the prosecution's statement, which specifically named two of the defendants: Haneen Hossam, a 20-year-old student, and Mawada Eladhm, 22.




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The string of arrests for “moral issues” is more broadly part of a clampdown on personal freedoms that has accelerated since President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi came to power in 2013.


A widely circulated online petition described the arrests as a “systematic crackdown that targets low-income women,” and urged authorities to free the nine young women detained in recent months for posting TikTok videos.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egyptian-women-get-2-years-in-prison-for-tiktok-dance-videos/
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Some third world countries have this very vague and nebulous concept where people can be charged for disturbing social harmony or violating public morals or corrupting society.

Yeah yeah I know some of you will half humorsly say we should be doing this too.

There also appears to be a strong class factor motivating the authorities' response.

El Sisi keeping Egyptians safe , as always !!!


They arent even radical leftists. Very mild. Also jailing women of reproductive age for dancing isnt smart. I guess the goal is the jail sentence changes them into conservative muslim women.
 
Wasn't Tik Tok linked to China gaining sensitive information from everyone using it? I could've sworn American is trying to ban that shit. If that's the case fuck her. No matter how stupid her video is, China shouldn't receive anything from anyone immorally. Considering how immoral of a shit hole that place is anyway.

Edit your comment.

You say "f@ck her" and go on about china why?
In general the left-right divide in Egypt doesn't exist as we know it. In places like Latin America leftists are the champions of the poor against the right wing authoritarian elements. But Egypt its actually kind of the opposite; the more secular "progressive" types(relatively speaking, compared to the West they are most like mid 20th century cosmopolitans so still conservative by our standards) are anti-democracy because they know if they had to compete fair and square in elections they wouldn't stand a chance. They also support austerity because the countries finances are fucking trash due to corruption so not much money to spare for the mass in terms of welfare and subsidies and also the lite don't feel the squeeze so they have no reason to care; in other words, "let them eat cake".

Its the Islamists who represent the massive masses. They are the ones who run massive social welfare networks servicing the poor and run by middle class professionals(who als benefit from these services given the lack of a state social safety net)

{<diva}

You mean they took advantage of elections and won? That's...the point of democracy. I know people pretend like they went full Ayatollah as soon they won but that's not really true. Sure there was regressive stuff in their constitution but this is Egypt, not Norway. Of course its going to be very conservative, the people are! Democracy should reflect the people's will should it not? People with moronic ideas like Obama's "I want the Google guy it win" seem to think Egypt only deserves democracy if they vote in someone who doesn't offend Western sensibilities.

Why shouldn't he have got rid of Mubarak's generals? He also tried to get rid of his judges and he was right about that too. Wtf sense does it make to oust Mubarak but keep the entire system he built over decades in tact? What kind of revolution is that?

It is sort of similar in Israel I was reading. They have a quasi democracy but the secularists dont want judicial reform. And hold a lot of power via justices appointed years ago who overturn laws supported by the elected right wing parliament. The religious support more mass welfare for citizens. It seems all religious dominated countries have the same situation. Such as Turkey's secularists really being the minority and using undemocratic means to hold power in the past.

In Latin America the left isnt anti authortarian per say and can be just as racialist and tribal. As Latinos have de facto a caste system of "race realism". It isnt as black and white and always fluidity. But in general pure african and native is at the botton and Muslim is bad. And lighter skin at the top along with good looking wealthy people. The right cares less for welfare as lower races they see as poor or deserving of there situation. But in some areas the left seculariats use the masses to achieve their own agenda. Ortaega a leftist racist as was Che.

Also in much of Latin America the left holds or held power via Judicary support. In Brazil the courts legalized gay marriage against the will of the masses. And courts were left wing. In Brazil and Chile Senators serve 8 year terms and hold supreme power so it allows oligarchy to hold more power then an elected president as Senators will be in power beyond 1 presidential term.
 
Yes Egypt does not exactly have a sparkling record when it comes to upholding human rights.

You should see what they do to lgbt people. Ever had a "forced anal exam"?
 
trump_sisi.0.jpg

Trump stunned US officials when he called Egyptian President el-Sisi 'my favorite dictator' at the G7
 
I disagree with this ruling but parents should have some responsibilities over their kids. They’re not teaching them the moralities these days and it is wrong to let them go anywhere near cancer social media. This is why they should start making brick phones to cater for kids and teens.

The judge who made this sentence is a hypocrite because Egypt is known to be the Hollywood of the Arab world.
 
Egypt has unfortunately gotten worse over the last decades... Wasn't like this not too long ago. Many places in the middle east were a lot less conservative/fundamentalist 50 years ago, and you would hardly recognize places like Iran and Palestine. Look at Nasser clowning on the Muslim brotherhood for wanting to force the hijab on women.

 
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Yes Egypt does not exactly have a sparkling record when it comes to upholding human rights. You should see what they do to lgbt people. Ever had a "forced anal exam"?

<Dany07>

That is unbelievably stupid and buttholes are quite a bit more elastic than they seem to think. Let's disregard that along with the fact that a lot of gheys don't even have anal sex: what if you're (predominantly) a 'top'? :confused: Stay the fuck away from my balloon knot, you homo bastards. Anyway, still got nothing on post-Saddam Iraq. It's so creatively brutal and hateful that it beggars belief; an extra little feather in the cap of American foreign policy and that morally justified war.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/13/iraq-gays-murdered-militias

Homosexuality was not criminalised under Saddam Hussein – indeed Iraq in the 1960s and 1970s was known for its relatively liberated gay scene. Violence against gays started in the aftermath of the invasion in 2003.

The killings are brutal, with victims ritually tortured. Azhar al-Saeed's son was one. "He didn't follow what Islamic doctrine tells but he was a good son," she said. "Three days after his kidnapping, I found a note on my door with blood spread over it and a message saying it was my son's purified blood and telling me where to find his body."

She went with police to find her son's remains. "We found his body with signs of torture, his anus filled with glue and without his genitals," she said. "I will carry this image with me until my dying day."

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/i...nducing-diarrhea-to-cause-death-ffe630225693/

Yina Mohammad told Alarabiya.net that, "Iraqi militias have deployed an unprecedented form of torture against homosexuals by using a very strong glue that will close their anus."

The substance is an Iranian-manufactured glue that if applied to the skin, sticks to it and can only be removed by surgery. After they glue the anuses of gay people, they give them a drink that causes diarrhea. Since the anus is closed, the diarrhea causes death.

Videos of this form of torture are being distributed on mobile cellphones in Iraq.
 
Society should be free to follow the organic trends and movements that swirl within it though personally I think its good to have a minimum level of religiosity in society. I'm not saying we have to go full Egypt/Pakistan but maybe some brakes on the progressive race to the bottom would be nice.

You'll be a full blown fundamentalist by middle age.

<36>

Muslim-Americans are being rapidly corrupted, by the "DNC" and the likes of @nac386. Those percentage shifts are massive. It's obviously quite convenient and cool 'n stuff but 'acceptance' is kind of whatever tbh, unless you mean within the framework of legal rights. If it's illegal then yeah that's a big problem.


PF_2017.06.26_muslimamericans-04new-06.png
 
If I was working at the embassy, these are the type of people I would be reaching out to and offering them asylum in our country if they were willing.

Import people that want freedom and are persecuted. Don't import people that oppose freedom and want to oppress.
 
Yeah fair enough. I think its mainly because Sisi is mostly convenient for the West; while the institutions of global capital are frustrated with the corruption and and lack of reform that inhibits growth the military generally advances the regional security interests of the West. So only these types of stories get any press since they have a certain symbolic resonance that appeals to Westerners that something like the massacre of over a thousand MB supporters doesn't

I think that's because in Egypt there is a lot of inequality so you have a relatively cosmopolitan elite that supports the dictatorship and then you have the poor masses. Going after people among the elite would be a mistake, could undermine the regime among its already narrow base of support. So might as well go after poor people.

I suspect they do this because they know the Egyptian public is generally conservative given the success of the Brotherhood movement. But of course they don't want to actually give concessions to the MB so instead they think stuff like this is enough to placate the conservative sensibilities of the public. Basically worst of both worlds; brutal state violence of military dictatorship guided by faux conservative mores. I say faux because no one believes the ruling elite actually care about Islam. I attended an event by Morsi supporters once and I remember then poking fun at Sisi and his cronies for trying to appear religious by leading Friday prayers but making obvious mistakes in their salat.

Right and they don't give a shit about the vast majority of political prisoners in Egypt and the general authoritarianism of the government against its primary oppositions and the most effective democratizing force in the country.

There are two kinds of feminists in Egypt. You have the cosmopolitan elite feminists who see the military dictatorship as the lesser evil compared to democracy which would means the strong possibility of the Muslim Brotherhood(or God forbid the Salafists) gaining political power sooner or later. And you have more radical feminists activists who are a tiny minority of the opposition and have no real grassroots base and therefore have no real power against the dictatorship and at best harmlessly squawk at it.

It is all sad. I dont have strong hopes for Egypt anytime soon.

I think only the Maghreb is the beacon of the Arab world. Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. Are where it is at. Algeria still makes it relatively hard to visit almost every country on earth needs a visit. However, they seem the only stable intact Arsb countries. As much as people rave about Saudi economy and Qatar etc, those countries to me seem highly unstable. Shame Syria is where it is now too.
 
You'll be a full blown fundamentalist by middle age.

<36>

Muslim-Americans are being rapidly corrupted, by the "DNC" and the likes of @nac386. Those percentage shifts are massive. It's obviously quite convenient and cool 'n stuff but 'acceptance' is kind of whatever tbh, unless you mean within the framework of legal rights. If it's illegal then yeah that's a big problem.


PF_2017.06.26_muslimamericans-04new-06.png

Coconut muslims.

Textually there is no justification for liberal behavior. However, from a secular stand point it is a good thing.
 
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