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International Egypt sentences girls who posted TikTok videos to 2-3 years prison. Crime : violating public morals

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by MicroBrew, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:42 AM.

  1. Jackie Blue Gold Belt

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    It's kind of funny (sad) how Egypt has regressed in a lot of ways since the 1950s in this regard. I remember Nasser back then regaling to a laughing audience how the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood came to him and requested that he make hijabs mandatory throughout Egypt. And then Nasser pointed out that "dear leader" couldn't even make his own daughter wear a hijab, so how'd he expect Nasser to make every woman in Egypt wear one. :)

     
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  2. Yehudim Orange Belt

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    Don’t play the fool and act like the Muslim Brotherhood isn’t about using democracy and civil society as a tool to an Islamic state.

    It’s literally their doctrine

    You can make the argument that it’s better for Egypt (I’m sure 10% of Egypt would have something to say about that) but neither side is using democracy in good faith
     
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  3. LangfordBarrow StickAndMove Platinum Member

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    Being hot and being able to act are vastly different things.
     
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  4. Hard To Tell Black Belt

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    In Egypt it's completely normal to see men hit their wives in public.
     
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  5. Buddy Revell Amazon Prime Unboxing Champion

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    Oh, i get that. But she doesn't have to be able to act to be an Actress, i mean, Gal Gadot can't act but she's a Movie Star full stop. And she's just one example. If the camera loves you the camera loves you... and the camera loves this chick. On-Screen presence and Charisma >>>> Acting Ability. All day. It's what separates actors-- from working actors-- from movie stars. The only workarounds are nepotism and fucking the right people.
     
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  6. Staph infection Glue historian

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    How many poor farm animals were mistreated in sexual emergencies due to this Jezebel flaunting her ankles and open mouth so seductively?
     
  7. Kafir-kun Fear is Freedom, Subjugation is Liberation Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yes and? What's wrong with that? Isn't the point of democracy to incentivize non-violent political action through elections and civil society engagement? So long as they state within certain limits I don't think that's inherently wrong.

    Look I'm not dumb, there are legit concerns with any democratic experiment in Egypt. Its a shithole country among shithole countries, of course there would be. If it wasn't Islamists it'd be communists or populist nationalists or irredentist Pan-Arabists or whatever. But people are way too quick to assume the worst of the Brotherhood and way too quick to assume the best of these military dictators against all evidence. People cried about how authoritarian Morsi was but he was in office over a year and never did anything close to as brutal as the Rabaa massacre which Sisi did with just a few months in office. Certainly didn't crackdown on dissent the way Sisi has.

    I wish the MB was at least given a little bit more of a chance. Give them the opportunity to peacefully transfer power following an electoral loss, if they don't or if they prevent free and fair elections then fine fuck em. Though I still think its for the worst if they get coup'd at that point can't say they weren't asking for it.
    Only one side is using democracy though, the other uses the repressive state apparatus.

    As far as the 10%, funny that you use that number. I once had an Egyptian Copt as a classmate and she said something to the effect of "I wish people knew that Egypt had a minority of like 10% that are secular and not like the backwards 90%", bit of an elitist cunt if you ask me. Certainly don't think her 10% are entitled to veto the democratic experiment so that their little clique can keep their stranglehold on the economy and power. Btw same girl got a little bothered by my frequent reference to the term "slave" in 19th century Egypt. Knowing what we know about the persistence of slavery in that country it was rather ominous. So yeah, not a 10% I wish to empower over the 90%
    So because they wear hijab they've regressed? Very silly reasoning and very telling that this is what people in the West obsesses about. As far as I am concerned what matters most are social indicators; life expectancy, maternal/infant mortality, literacy rate, wealth inequality, rate of out of wedlock births etc. Seems like most casual international observers don't give two shits about these metrics so long as the country advances the regional security interests of the West and the women don't trigger Westerners on their cheap vacations with hijabs and burkas.

    Truth is on many of those Egypt has regressed bigly and that's what we should focus on.
     
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  8. Yehudim Orange Belt

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    Uhh, the point is that their goal is to not stay within those limits and they didn’t do anything to suggest that they weren’t working on that goal.

    I think the minority of Egyptian Copts absolutely do have the right to speak up against that form of “””democracy””” since their rights will be trampled on AT BEST. Forced conversions and mass violence at worst.

    It’s cliche but that’s like saying Jews being a tiny percent of the German population didn’t have the right to stand up against the Nazis because democracy

    Democracy isn’t some magical tool as you know, and all democratic nations have some sort of protection to avoid the prejudice of the 51% being applied to the 49% or whatever statistic you’re working with
     
  9. Kafir-kun Fear is Freedom, Subjugation is Liberation Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Wait they didn't do anything to suggest they weren't? I don't want to assume too much but it honestly seems like you're assuming the worst of them and since they didn't walk on eggshells with this in mind therefore they're only proving critics right.
    Yes Copts have a legit concern and there was some regressive stuff discussed by the MB. But the alternative is hardly better, most of the restrictions if not all against the Cops remain in place and the security situation has only gotten worse over the years.

    My problem with the Copt girl is that she came off as really elitist. She wasn't some devout Copt worried about her faith, she was a secular elite who looked at the majority of her countrymen with disdain.

    I'm not saying people are wrong to have some doubts with the MB but I think overall people get clouded by them way too quickly and assume the best of the alternative. Like I said they weren't even given the chance to oversee a free and fair election and peacefully transfer power. I'm not saying we should just stand and watch either, I'm all about international pressure for bad actors. I think as is we should limit aid to Egypt for the Coptic situation if not go further, much less if the MB somehow made it worse. Its an absolute travesty that the largest Christian nation funnels billions in aid to nations like Egypt and Pakistan which oversee brutal oppression of Christians.
     
  10. jrams Red Belt

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    Islam is incongruent with feminism. Just about every theocratic society is incongruent with feminism, but currently Muslims are the most aggressive and most repressive. The US having nutbags like Linda Sarsour to dupe people into thinking the contrary doesn't help.
     
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  11. LangfordBarrow StickAndMove Platinum Member

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    I don't condone Sisi's behavior at all either, obviously he's a dictator, but the MB did have their chance to a democratic experiment and failed. It's not just me, with my American views, but all the hundreds of thousands that continued to protest the direction they were taking Egypt toward an Islamic state.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 2:27 PM
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  12. Jackie Blue Gold Belt

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    I was assuming you would get the gist of what I was saying, but perhaps I expressed myself more poorly than I thought I was. I wasn't really talking specifically about the hijab. It was more of an example of the relative secularism of the past and sense of proportionality. Nasser wasn't concerned about bullshit like mandatory hijabs or arresting women on vague "corrupting the morals" charges for minor "offenses". It was just an example of his worldview. Also, the point isn't about wearing the hijab, it's about making it mandatory and about draconian enforcement of "modesty" and "morality" laws. Of course many women voluntarily wear hijabs there, both now and then. That's not the concern. I support secular governments. Nasser was devout in his personal life, but he wasn't trying to force "morality" on the populace.
     
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  13. Kafir-kun Fear is Freedom, Subjugation is Liberation Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    No they didn't, they had a year in office and were then deposed. That's not anything close to fair chance at democracy in a country that has seen decades and decades of military dictatorship.

    I don't even think the MB should get involved in party politics, they should stick to opposition politics. But the double standards here are ridiculous. Besides there were protests against Sisi, why shouldn't he leave office? Oh that's right the West backs him because he's an ally to their regional interests, that's why.
    Very silly logic. Would it have been okay for Trump to have been deposed in a coup because of the Women's March? Or deposing Macron due to the yellow vest protests? Go ahead and protest but he should been allowed to serve his term.
    He was trying to force his morality, its just that the morality he was forcing is the type of morality that Westerners don't mind being forced on Muslim populations. The so called secular elites in these places really represent a kind of mid 20th century Western worldview so think pre-CRA and globalism as we know it. But its still defined against the indigenous values, or at least what is seen as such and its definitely imposed on the masses.

    Nasser was one of the most repressive leaders in the history of the modern state of Egypt, its a bit odd to me that you say he didn't want to force his values on others . He definitely wanted to force Pan-Arabism and so called Arab socialism on not only Egypt but the region. He did so exponentially more forcefully than Morsi, really the only leader after him who matched Nasser's repressiveness is Sisi.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 2:52 PM
  14. LangfordBarrow StickAndMove Platinum Member

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    It seems like the turn Turkey has taken since Erdogan took power.
     
  15. Jackie Blue Gold Belt

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    It's hard to express the totality and complexity of my views on this topic. Notice "morality" was in quotations. Specifically, I meant in the religious sense. I'm aware that secularism in the Islamic world has been expressed in a much more authoritarian fashion than in the West. Whether in Turkey or Egypt as we are discussing here.

    I agree that he wanted to force his values on others (don't think I said otherwise, although you might have thought I was implying it). I don't necessarily see him as a great leader overall, but I do appreciate his secularism and enjoyed his rebuke of the Muslim Brotherhood, and would like to see more of that from today's leaders in the region. I do value secularism in government. But I also realize that it does not excuse other bad actions and a secular government is not inherently a good one.
     
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  16. Jackie Blue Gold Belt

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    Yes, there are parallels there. Although there are large cultural differences so it's not exactly the same situation. Erdogan wouldn't charge women for innocuous videos like that. Not even for considerably more explicit ones. Turkey is still much more secular and "liberal" than Egypt as a whole.
     
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  17. Kafir-kun Fear is Freedom, Subjugation is Liberation Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Yeah I just don't agree really, just not that wedded to secularism as a cultural project. Its nice for states to be secular so there's no favoritism by the government apparatus towards one religion but the society should be free to be as religious as it wants. And Egypt is a very conservative society so the people should be free to elect conservatives leaders so long as they remain within certain limits. And I definitely disagree that we need more men like Nasser, like it or not the Brotherhood is often the most organized, effective, and pragmatic opposition movement in many Muslim countries and in many cases they are non-violent and push for democracy as well.

    The states of the region would be better off trying to work with them rather than taking Sisi's scorched earth approach. Heck the MB probably ran a larger social welfare network that the government and yet since 2013 many of the various charitable organizations they run have been cracked down on. So not only does the government suck at providing a social safety net, they're actively repressing the social movement that provides the only real social safety network in the country.
     
  18. Amerikuracana Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    In America it’s completely normal to see married women acting like sluts at the bar because they have zero fear (sadly = respect to many women) and/or respect for their husband..
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 3:33 PM
  19. Oliver C. Black Belt Platinum Member

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    Disgusting Whores....

    <{clintugh}>
     
  20. Yehudim Orange Belt

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    I could be wrong but Nasser never banned the hijab. He was against it being mandatory.

    He wall also among the most repressive leaders and also one of the most popular among Egyptians ever.

    People, or I guess, certain cultures will allow you to step all over them if you make your country look “strong” by fighting outsiders. Go figure.
     
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