Earning a black belt in the ring

[meng_mao]

Sakuraba and Wanderlei both have by consensus earned black belts in the ring.
If I have this right, Sakuraba's belt comes partially from defeating Gracies in MMA.
I don't question Sakuraba's fighting skill, but I think we all agree that MMA is very
different from BJJ. Just look at Nog -- he's a master submission artist, but his
game is MMA, not pure BJJ.

So my question is: why do people believe that MMA fighting skill (even in the form
of submissions) translates to pure BJJ skill?

For those higher level belts out there: how high would you rate Sakuraba's or Wanderlei's
skills in BJJ rules, just by looking at their fights in MMA?

 

[vanguard_anon]

When they invited the MMA guys to ADCC they did very well. The sports have a lot in common.

 

[meng_mao]

When they invited the MMA guys to ADCC they did very well. The sports have a lot in common.

The sports' rules do have a lot in common. But I was stunned when I first saw the Ricco x Nog ADCC fight. I was like, how could Nog lose? I just wonder what beating some good BJJists <i> under MMA rules</i> says about your own BJJ skills.

 

[stephensharp]

To understand this, you have to consider that BJJ was first and foremost developed for Vale Tudo competition, and that Helio and others consider the sport derivative that most consider "pure BJJ" to be a watering down/corruption of the real art.

There are many "pure BJJ" types that get destroyed by much lesser competitors in MMA (check fightfinder for Machado's record, for instance). REAL BJJ is what works using the philosophy of ranges of combat, positional dominance, and maximum efficiency. Fully realized, this more closely resembles MMA than BJJ.

"Pure BJJ" is just Judo with fewer restrictions on legal subs, and more points for positions.

Real BJJ is Vale Tudo.

 

[DMcKayBJJ]

^^^^very well said

 

[Weonlywonsixtwo]

Saku, is a submission wrestler.

 

[GracieBarra16]

No dude, Dennis Hallman got submitted by Jacare in a minute something, Diego Sanchez got armbarred by Marcelo Garcia, and GSP got armbarred, and Frank Trigg got defeated by Jake Shields, how does that make MMA and BJJ the same?

 

[Gavin LeFever]

To understand this, you have to consider that BJJ was first and foremost developed for Vale Tudo competition, and that Helio and others consider the sport derivative that most consider "pure BJJ" to be a watering down/corruption of the real art.

There are many "pure BJJ" types that get destroyed by much lesser competitors in MMA (check fightfinder for Machado's record, for instance). REAL BJJ is what works using the philosophy of ranges of combat, positional dominance, and maximum efficiency. Fully realized, this more closely resembles MMA than BJJ.

"Pure BJJ" is just Judo with fewer restrictions on legal subs, and more points for positions.

Real BJJ is Vale Tudo.

well said indeed.

everyone's so eager to label and catagorize everything but that's not what MMA is really about. people like seeing this art vs that art but that was MMA in the beginning. MMA now is cross training everything, leave no gaps.

i think bruce lee was way the hell ahead of his time and said it best of all.

"use no way as way."

it's like people trying to label music when the only label worth a damn is 'good.' rock can suck, country can suck, classic can suck, but they can all be good, so good that any listener can enjoy.

martial arts.. we are all artists in a sense, you gain no profit by labelling it.

 

[meng_mao]

No dude, Dennis Hallman got submitted by Jacare in a minute something, Diego Sanchez got armbarred by Marcelo Garcia, and GSP got armbarred, and Frank Trigg got defeated by Jake Shields, how does that make MMA and BJJ the same?

According to stephensharp, you are buying into the notion that sport-rules BJJ is the real BJJ. You are missing his point that the Gracie founders of BJJ intended it to be used for vale tudo.

 

[meng_mao]

that Helio and others consider the sport derivative that most consider "pure BJJ" to be a watering down/corruption of the real art.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[FutureBxer]

No dude, Dennis Hallman got submitted by Jacare in a minute something, Diego Sanchez got armbarred by Marcelo Garcia, and GSP got armbarred, and Frank Trigg got defeated by Jake Shields, how does that make MMA and BJJ the same?

well why dont u mention how diego gave marcelo one hell of a fight. Sure he was armbarred but no shame in losing to marcelo.


I didnt get to see the other matches so I cant comment on those but just because they lost doesnt mean they suck.


also keep in mind that GSP is still a purple belt.

 

[Darwinist]

Helio has been very forthright that he believes point-based sport BJJ is just one way to practice and train the art, and not neccesarily the best one. His generation measured their performance almost purely by sucess and failure in Vale Tudo matches. A good technique was a technique that worked in a fight.

I personally have no problem with awarding black belts in BJJ for good performance in MMA. I also have no problem with awarding black belts for success in sport BJJ. How he decides to measure a student

 

[Hamit Aktas]

Sakuraba and Wanderlei both have by consensus earned black belts in the ring.
If I have this right, Sakuraba's belt comes partially from defeating Gracies in MMA.
I don't question Sakuraba's fighting skill, but I think we all agree that MMA is very
different from BJJ. Just look at Nog -- he's a master submission artist, but his
game is MMA, not pure BJJ.

So my question is: why do people believe that MMA fighting skill (even in the form
of submissions) translates to pure BJJ skill?

For those higher level belts out there: how high would you rate Sakuraba's or Wanderlei's
skills in BJJ rules, just by looking at their fights in MMA?

You're wrong. Sakuraba haven't been "awarded" a BJJ black belt in the ring.

About awarding black belts after a fight, it's because someone could successfully use their BJJ in a fight like those professional fights in Pride FC. Sort of like, if you can use BJJ and win against a fighter like that, you should be a blackbelt. It's looked down upon by various BJJ legends, because to them BJJ is an art that you should practise for many many years before being considered being given a black belt. Wanderlei is no BJJ black belt, though his defense is close to "perfection". He moves in a very impressive manner when on his back. But with no good submission skills or pure grappling skills.

Sakuraba though, he's just as good as a BJJ blackbelt, but he'd never be given a black belt by BJJ masters because he haven't been training pure BJJ. He haven't been competing or anything. He can use his submission wrestling and his BJJ knowledge to beat four Gracie's and other BJJ black belts, but he'd never be given a "real" black belt.

It all depends on how you look at BJJ as an art.

 

[VagabondMusashi]

Sakuraba is not a BJJ practitioner. He has submitted many BJJ black belts ( Conan, Renzo, Royler, Newton, just to name a few of the top, top guys). He is well known for being a grappling genius.
When he trained at Chute Boxe with a gi he trained with a black belt, if I remember correctly, and I don

 

[Darwinist]

I think Saku should be able to test for black belt. He has the skills, nevermind who he learned it from. Give him a gi, toss him onto the mat with a couple of topflight black belts and if he wins - he

 

[stephensharp]

Do you have a source for this?

Darwinist backed me up in an anecdotal sense, but I'll try and find some source material of translated interviews or something. I believe in his last Grappling Magazine interview, the one he did to promote his new book, he outright said that sport BJJ was not what he envisioned for the sport, and I've heard from multiple sources that he feels sport BJJ is "killing" the art. This primarily comes from anecdotal accounts of him saying "BJJ wasn't made to win on points" and the like.

Is a BJJ black belt that earned his belt in sport grappling competitions where he consistently won on points for positional dominance more legit than one that wins in NHB settings by knocking people out?

 

[stephensharp]

I think Saku should be able to test for black belt. He has the skills, nevermind who he learned it from. Give him a gi, toss him onto the mat with a couple of topflight black belts and if he wins - he

 

[meng_mao]

You're wrong. Sakuraba haven't been "awarded" a BJJ black belt in the ring.

I never said that he was awarded a black belt. I said people thought he had earned one through his success in the ring.