Earnie Shavers passed away

burningspear said:
ODxZDS.gif
Click to expand...

This one is for the ages.
 
Speaking of Larry Holmes, he's still alive @mozfonky.
But for som reason he never gets counted among the elite of that era. Probably because he's more linked to the 1980s.
But he was arguably at his physical best in 1978.
 
defjaam said:
Speaking of Larry Holmes, he's still alive @mozfonky.
But for som reason he never gets counted among the elite of that era. Probably because he's more linked to the 1980s.
But he was arguably at his physical best in 1978.
Click to expand...
maybe, but as you know, he didn't prove himself at that point. His peak was probably when he fought Cooney and he didn't fight Foreman or Frazier. He had a war with Norton who was past his prime. In fact, by 78, all those guys were either well in decline or starting to decline. Young and Shavers were still top guys at that point but Foreman, Frazier and Ali were a good few years past their primes. Frazier never looked as good as he did against Ali in the first fight, Ali's entire comeback was pretty up and down, even when he was winning all his fights. People weren't impressed with the Patterson, Mathis and Foster fights. He never did equal what he was in the 60's but he came damn close on a few nights when he could be bothered to work in the gym.

I'm not sure if even peak larry could beat all three guys. I would think he might be able to handle Foreman, Frazier would be a tough fight and Ali would be close too. But Larry really does belong in at least the top five heavyweights ever in my opinion. He had the bad luck of following a great era and also of having an era of unmotivated, drug addled fighters who couldn't match his discipline. I still think on a good night, later on, a page could have taken him but by that point larry was starting to slide, which is when Michael Spinks took him.
 
mozfonky said:
maybe, but as you know, he didn't prove himself at that point. His peak was probably when he fought Cooney and he didn't fight Foreman or Frazier. He had a war with Norton who was past his prime. In fact, by 78, all those guys were either well in decline or starting to decline. Young and Shavers were still top guys at that point but Foreman, Frazier and Ali were a good few years past their primes. Frazier never looked as good as he did against Ali in the first fight, Ali's entire comeback was pretty up and down, even when he was winning all his fights. People weren't impressed with the Patterson, Mathis and Foster fights. He never did equal what he was in the 60's but he came damn close on a few nights when he could be bothered to work in the gym.

I'm not sure if even peak larry could beat all three guys. I would think he might be able to handle Foreman, Frazier would be a tough fight and Ali would be close too. But Larry really does belong in at least the top five heavyweights ever in my opinion. He had the bad luck of following a great era and also of having an era of unmotivated, drug addled fighters who couldn't match his discipline. I still think on a good night, later on, a page could have taken him but by that point larry was starting to slide, which is when Michael Spinks took him.
Click to expand...
I've always felt match ups make fights.

I too, think prime Holmes would have beat prime Foreman but had issues with prime Frazier. I think he would have had trouble setting up and keeping distance against him the same way Ali did in that first with that constant pressure. I feel like he could have got away from Foreman's pressure. I think Holmes would have always had issues with Mike Tyson as well, but in his prime he may have survived long enough to tool Mike up. The problem with Frazier is he never slowed down.

I have prime 1960's Ali beating Prime homes in a very competitive fight. I think a 215lb prime Ali had just a bit more in the tank and it would have mattered down the stretch. I think Prime Norton and prime Holmes is a competitive fight that goes either way. When they fought, Norton was a few years past his prime, but I think Holmes actually peaked in the Early 80's.

The thing about Holmes is that I have him doing REALLY well against some of the giants of today like Fury, Wilder,
klitschko etc, I see Frazier having trouble with all of those guys and Ali having trouble prime klitschko. Foreman walks through Wilder, and loses to the other two if he doesn't finish them early. Norton Beats wilder and is competitive with the other two all the way down the stretch.
 
Last edited:
Hatorade said:
I've always felt match ups make fights.

I too, think prime Holmes would have beat prime Foreman but had issues with prime Frazier. I think he would have had trouble setting up and keeping distance against him the same way Ali did in that first with that constant pressure. I feel like he could have got away from Foreman's pressure.

I have prime 1960's Ali beating Prime homes in a very competitive fight. I think a 215lb prime Ali had just a bit more in the tank and it would have mattered down the stretch. I think Prime Norton and prime Holmes is a competitive fight that goes either way. When they fought, Norton was a few years past his prime, but I think Holmes actually peaked in the Early 80's.

The thing about Holmes is that I have him doing REALLY well against some of the giants of today like Fury, Wilder,
klitschko etc, I see Frazier having trouble with all of those guys and Ali having trouble prime klitschko. Foreman walks through Wilder, and loses to the other two if he doesn't finish them early. Norton Beats wilder and is competitive with the other two all the way down the stretch.
Click to expand...

Holmes was a lot like Ali, maybe not as good a chin, but more power in all his punches, not as much speed but fast enough, he also learned all of Ali's tricks which served him well over the years. The only thing that puts ali over him and everyone else is Ali's incredible stamina and the pace he fought at in the 60's.
 
mozfonky said:
Holmes was a lot like Ali, maybe not as good a chin, but more power in all his punches, not as much speed but fast enough, he also learned all of Ali's tricks which served him well over the years. The only thing that puts ali over him and everyone else is Ali's incredible stamina and the pace he fought at in the 60's.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Ali's stamina was incredible for a HW. Guys now claim he wasn't a true HW, but at 6'3" 215lbs he was big enough to fight anyone in any era just like Holmes IMO. 6'3 and a lean build without bulky muscles seems to be the best build for a HW fighter. I'm not dissing the big men that have come along, but speed seems to suffer after around 6'3" and stamina seems to suffer after around the height as well. You see that in Track runners. Just not a lot of them over that height other than Bolt because that's a long way to pump blood and a lot of body to move.

Guys now talk about how good of stamina Fury has or his speed, but I see him more as a fighter that recovers well or a big man with great cardio and speed. When you watch the pace or speed of some of those guys in the golden era, the HW fights today look slow.
 
Man this is terrible. One of the really goods in an era of Greats. He had some special type of power in those hands. RIP Ernie, we love ya.
 
defjaam said:

When I knocked down Larry Holmes, I was heavyweight champion of the world for 7 seconds. In my dreams he never beats the count.
Click to expand...

still don’t understand how he got up. Nothing in that gif suggests it’s possible.
 
People always talk about his power, for obvious reasons, but I remember Shavers being a pretty damn good BOXER and a hell of an athlete. The man knew his craft well and could hang with the best of them.
 
defjaam said:
Speaking of Larry Holmes, he's still alive @mozfonky.
But for som reason he never gets counted among the elite of that era. Probably because he's more linked to the 1980s.
But he was arguably at his physical best in 1978.
Click to expand...

I think people just plain were annoyed by him. He was sulky, moody, and ungrateful. You couldn't please him no matter what. Obviously, as far as fighting that means nothing, but back then, when more people watched, more people just didn't care about him. Him losing 2x to a LHW that was blasted out in 91 seconds by Tyson, and then later losing in 4 rounds to Tyson pretty much let people at the time conclude that he was a mouthy guy who fought in a weak era.

You can't blame a fighter for their era. It always bugs me when people do that. If Ali was in Holmes' 1980's run, people would get shitty about him, too.

Holmes had a steady jab, big heart, solid engine, and fought who he could. I can't fault the guy's career. How he carried himself, though, hurt himself, and that's on him. Whatever.
 
jeff7b9 said:
People always talk about his power, for obvious reasons, but I remember Shavers being a pretty damn good BOXER and a hell of an athlete. The man knew his craft well and could hang with the best of them.
Click to expand...
That's right, I'm always surprised by how skilled he looks. He got a late start and unlike a lot of guys who got a late start, he picked up everything he needed to pick up. Norton, another late starter, never looked right. He gave some guys headaches because he was "awkward" but he always looked odd, I think because of the late start. The knock on Earnie was that his stamina was bad, in fact, he blamed his corner for telling him to conserve his energy against Ali when he had him hurt in the 2nd round and not finishing him. I think he knew though that Ali was about as close to unfinishable as any man who ever fought. That fight is a mini-classic, Ali squoze enough out of his aging body to pull out a close, great fight. No one really recalls that fight in the class of the other Ali victories but it was pretty dramatic, Ali also damn near kayoed shavers in the closing seconds.

Objectively, Ali needed a fight with a puncher like Shavers at that point like he needed a hole in his head. In fact, New York banned him from fighting after that one and his own doctor walked out on him. The punches he took in that fight, I think were the hardest he ever took and they actually made me sick watching it the first time I saw it as an adult (saw it as a kid but didn't know what I was seeing then).
 
deucesarewild said:
I think people just plain were annoyed by him. He was sulky, moody, and ungrateful. You couldn't please him no matter what. Obviously, as far as fighting that means nothing, but back then, when more people watched, more people just didn't care about him. Him losing 2x to a LHW that was blasted out in 91 seconds by Tyson, and then later losing in 4 rounds to Tyson pretty much let people at the time conclude that he was a mouthy guy who fought in a weak era.

You can't blame a fighter for their era. It always bugs me when people do that. If Ali was in Holmes' 1980's run, people would get shitty about him, too.

Holmes had a steady jab, big heart, solid engine, and fought who he could. I can't fault the guy's career. How he carried himself, though, hurt himself, and that's on him. Whatever.
Click to expand...

Larry was not a popular champion and he always had his foot in his mouth. Him being mouthy and dissing the fans of Marciano ("couldn't carry my jockstrap") pissing off judges ("they go out and get drunk" before fights) and my personal reason, beating a shopworn Ali managed to make him a champion people hated.

I recall with lots of amusement how I'd sit with my stepdad and just hope like hell one of the Witherspoons or the Bonecrushcers or the David Bey's would beat his ass. My stepdad knew this and would rub it in when Holmes knocked his man out yet again, my stepdad would get up off the couch, clap loudly and say, "alright larry Holmes!" and then he'd grab my shoulder and say, "see, I told you he'd win!" I hated Holmes and the Spinks losses weren't punishing enough for my taste. Only the Tyson destruction would do for me.
 
defjaam said:
Speaking of Larry Holmes, he's still alive @mozfonky.
But for som reason he never gets counted among the elite of that era. Probably because he's more linked to the 1980s.
But he was arguably at his physical best in 1978.
Click to expand...

He never got the credit for being old and boxing at a very high level. He beat Ray Mercer when he was in his 40s. Foreman in comparison was gifted a very soft run to a title shot against a blowed up cruiserweight and got very lucky.

Holmes to me is one of the most gifted heavyweights ever. He was very talented and fundamentally strong. In my opinion, he was better than any version of Ali, particularly the Ali that came back after his suspension. He got a lot of shit for a saying Marcino couldn't hold his jock but honestly, Holmes would have shut out Marcino without breaking a sweat. It wouldn't even be remotely close. You would have 12 rounds of Marcino flailing to try to land something and never ever being able to get anything going. .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,982
Messages
55,459,249
Members
174,787
Latest member
Freddie556

Share this page

Back
Top