Early 1900's Judo footage of De La Riva sweep

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by KJGould, Aug 7, 2015.

  1. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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  2. SteelHammer

    SteelHammer Green Belt

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    well it's not like it's anything that complicated. Was he "playing dlr"? Probably not, he probably just snuck a foot in
     
  3. JPSoprano80

    JPSoprano80 White Belt

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    Nice find
     
  4. JudoYourDayUp

    JudoYourDayUp Orange Belt

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    I think that is Oda, and there is a long awesome video somewhere of him doing some slick (new school) ground work.
     
  5. RTD1

    RTD1 Blue Belt

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    The "De La Okano" sweep from the 1976 book Vital Judo: Grappling Techniques:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. mattemate

    mattemate Brown Belt

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    well it's not like it's anything that complicated. Was he "playing dlr"? Probably not, he probably just snuck a foot in
     
  7. nooper

    nooper Orange Belt

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    plus
     
  8. RTD1

    RTD1 Blue Belt

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    You're right. There was absolutely no leverage when Oda or Okano did it. How could there be since neither of them ever met the inventor of leverage, Helio?
     
  9. mattemate

    mattemate Brown Belt

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    Ask Steel Hammer, brah. He's got the answers.
     
  10. SteelHammer

    SteelHammer Green Belt

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    well maybe
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2015
  11. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    The first video looks like a scissor sweep on a standing/bent opponent, and the pictorial looks like a sumi gaeshi with foot placement in DLR rather than in front and under the far leg (its a variation of a sweep I used to use a lot). I don't think anyone is saying that Ricardo De La Riva was the first man to put his foot in that spot and do something offensive.
     
  12. Hywel Teague

    Hywel Teague Orange Belt

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    It's disappointing the person who uploaded this clip has done so in a clearly obfuscatory way.

    Some background:

    I (BJJ black belt under De la Riva) noticed a technique that looked remarkably like a de la riva sweep while watching a longer video about judo. I made a gif of it and posted it to Reddit r/bjj

    https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/2on6f6/tsunetane_oda_de_la_riva_sweep_early_1900s_judo

    I posited that it resembled a DLR sweep, and asked for people's thoughts on the matter.

    The evidence is uncertain as the camera angle makes it difficult to clearly see the position of his hooks, and it was the lone technique from that position on a much longer video. Myself and many others recognise the similarity, but the motion of the sweep and way Oda elevated uke looked somewhat different to a 'traditional' DLR sweep from that position.

    Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZkv1trEI

    The 5-second gif was uploaded to YouTube by "R H Marcus". The uploader almost exactly copied my thread title from Reddit, but with a notable difference

    Reddit thread title: "Tsunetane Oda, de la riva sweep? Early 1900s judo video"

    YouTube video title: "Tsunetane Oda - 'De La Riva Sweep', Early 1900s, Kosen Judo"

    The uploader removed the question mark so as to remove doubt over the exact nature of the technique. Instead of questioning the technique in clip, he's making a statement that this IS as per the title, which IMO is deliberately misleading.

    I tried discussing this with him in the comments to the YouTube video, along with others who also took issue with his appropriation of the technique and misrepresentation of the origin of the DLR guard.

    He deleted the comments.

    This leads me to believe that he is one of those "BJJ is 'basically just judo'" types that will distort facts to belittle recognition of jiu-jitsu techniques and positions. I always found it weird there is a vocal minority who seek to put forth that modern developments of jiu-jitsu already existed in judo – they did it with half guard, and much more.

    There is no argument that the DLR hook had been used before De la Riva himself began playing with it in the early 80s. There are only so many things you can do with a human body, so the chances of something being completely original are slim.

    The hook, however, was never used in judo the same way it had been used in jiu-jitsu following Ricardo de la Riva's development of the position. The way in which the hook controls the opponent, the opportunities it offers and the many techniques that have arisen as a result of the DLR guard makes the use of the hook in the original video look like a flint fire-starter compared to a blowtorch.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  13. Dogstarman

    Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

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  14. Hywel Teague

    Hywel Teague Orange Belt

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    To be clear, it's not OP who uploaded the video (I don't think), he's just posting what he found
     
  15. Dogstarman

    Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

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    Rekt.
     
  16. pigjohnmcarthy

    pigjohnmcarthy Orange Belt

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    That's far out man. Very interesting.
     
  17. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    I didn't upload it, and had no idea about the history surrounding the clip that Hywel mentioned. I thought it was just a cool old judo clip.
     
  18. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    Judo tends to regard newaza as something you learn by feel, and there are no named intermediary positions like there are for BJJ. Thus I find it unlikely there was a DLR guard as a go-to move, and this would just be an extension of a sweep principle. In fact having any go-to guard is unlike Judo, as Judo in general emphasizes dynamic movement. In fact, in some places you would get scolded even for closing your guard. Trying to keep someone in a guard so you can work your game is very much a BJJ concept.
     
  19. nefti

    nefti Red Belt

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    for a guy who doesn't train, you sure do look up a lot of stuff online.
     
  20. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    I'm guessing there's a point here beyond a passive aggressive indirect ad hominem? Wait, no, that's all this is.
     

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