Dynamic Effort

[TwoFour Lowkick]

I was considering starting some Dynamic Effort stuff. Using the search function I came across a few posts and this one stood out.

Dynamic Effort training is usually done between 2-3 rep sets (Like Donut mentioned). However, there should be a lot of sets (8-10). Rest allowed should be no more than 60secs between sets and closer to 30secs is probably preferred. I believe that's pretty close to Westsides protocol anyway.

The reason that DE training is not recommended for beginners is because they lack the CNS efficiency to make it effective. Unless, you've already got a decent strength base and you've been training (correctly) for at least 2-3 years, you probably won't be able to achieve enough motor recruitment to make it useful.

I completely agree with this. Have you guys ever lifted with a total beginner and had them perform low reps? They usually will walk away from a 5x5 routine ready for more action where as the veteran will be ready for a nap. That's because the veteran can recruit, for an example, maybe 85-90% motor recruitment and the beginner is only at 70%. This is also why sometimes beginners will actually respond better to higher volume routines.

Some background info:

For the last year or so I did weight training about twice a week (the foolish bb stuff) and trained muay thai about 4 days a week. I injured a knee and ankle which put a freeze in my MT training since late June. Since I stopped training I focused on S&P, working out 4 times a day, Monday and Thurs are push days Tuesday and Fridays are pull days.

I've made some (relatively) large gains. My bench has increased from 180 to 240, my SOHP has increased from 70 to 115. 155lb RDL to a 225lb RDL. I went from doing 2 pull ups to 12. I know a lot of these gains are probably the result of correcting my form and better CNS recruitment. These things considered do you guys think it will be worth it to incorporate DE work since I have relatively little experience lifting? Or should I continue to train the way I have been to strengthen my base? I'm curious because I will resume muay thai in another month or so and would like to get some explosiveness in my strikes (I've always been more of a pillow handed speedster..). Thanks for your input.

 

[Tosa]

How much do you squat? With what technique do you squat? How deep do you squat?

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

How much do you squat? With what technique do you squat? How deep do you squat?

My squat is non existent right now, due to my knee injury. Before hurting my knee I was squatting about 350

 

[BJJ in Chicago]

im not sure if this would be effective for bench because i am at nearly the same strength level as you and I know that I don't use it because I feel that increasing my maximum strength will increase my speed more than de at this point.

do i do dynamic effort work? yes. power cleans, box jumps, squat jumps, and plyo pushups account for the effort. but right now, for me, i don't feel de with the barbell is my best bet.

 

[Tosa]

You could try incorporating a small amount of DE work or explosive work, although the priority should be to just get stronger (and getting you knee healthy). For example you could try 5x3 of DE bench, once a week or every other week.

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

Thanks guys. You think maybe switching to DE for a week after every 4 weeks or so is an ok idea?

 

[milano]

Your bench is 240 and your SOHP is only 115? That's really strange.

 

[Tosa]

Thanks guys. You think maybe switching to DE for a week after every 4 weeks or so is an ok idea?

Done like that it would have more in common with a Deload week...so nothing wrong with it, but any benefit would because of it being a sort of deload, rather than improving rate of force production.

 

[UrbanSavage**]

So, your plan is to only do DE work one week out of every five? Doesn't make much sense to me, it would seem more sensible to follow the Westside template. It falls in with your plan of lifting four times a week, also. I'm just coming back from a layoff due to an injury/surgery, I'm not a beginner lifter but my numbers are low at the moment due to the forced year+ off.

For the first time, I started following the westside template and am using bands (but no chains) for DE lifting. My main focus has been technique improvement, but I've also been reading a ton about Westside and trying to follow all their methods to the best of my ability. I've found the DE work hugely benefitial personally, despite not being extremely strong or advanced. I think you have to factor in that, at Westside, more often than not they cut down on the number of DE sets they do and then work up in weight to heavy sets. That's what I've been doing, also.

I read an interview with AJ Roberts where he said that they work up in weight after their DE sets more often than not. Also, Louie Simmons said that the reason DE work was originally implemented was due to the majority of lifters not being able to handle benching and squatting/deadlifting ME twice a week. For DE days, it seems the best way to go about it to hit some DE sets and see how you feel and then decide whether or not you want to keep all the sets dynamic or work up after 5 sets or so.

Anyway, I think the main thing is to make sure your technique on the big 3 is up to par and you're getting enough reps in on those lifts themselves, because this is more important to the beginner than the advanced lifter. If you feel good in that regard, try out DE work and see if it works for you. Just get a set of short bands and a set of long bands at least if you do it, they're cheap as hell on EliteFTS - Powerlifting and Strength Training Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers and will make the DE work much more productive.

 

[DannyT]

Sorry to hijack the thread. How much roughly should one be able to squat/bench before attempting plyometrics? I find this quite confusing because I'm unsure whether to get stronger first or just jump right into plyos. Should one be able to squat twice their bodyweight before attempting plyometrics like some say? or is that a bit exaggerated?

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

Your bench is 240 and your SOHP is only 115? That's really strange.

My body is weird. Plus I tend to puss out on standing weighted exercises b/c I'm babying the shit out of my knees right now. My shoulders are also fairly weak. I am sure I can lift more, but that's the heaviest I go as I start to feel a bit of pressure in my knees going heavier

Done like that it would have more in common with a Deload week...so nothing wrong with it, but any benefit would because of it being a sort of deload, rather than improving rate of force production.

Gotcha

So, your plan is to only do DE work one week out of every five? Doesn't make much sense to me, it would seem more sensible to follow the Westside template. It falls in with your plan of lifting four times a week, also. I'm just coming back from a layoff due to an injury/surgery, I'm not a beginner lifter but my numbers are low at the moment due to the forced year+ off.

For the first time, I started following the westside template and am using bands (but no chains) for DE lifting. My main focus has been technique improvement, but I've also been reading a ton about Westside and trying to follow all their methods to the best of my ability. I've found the DE work hugely benefitial personally, despite not being extremely strong or advanced. I think you have to factor in that, at Westside, more often than not they cut down on the number of DE sets they do and then work up in weight to heavy sets. That's what I've been doing, also.

I read an interview with AJ Roberts where he said that they work up in weight after their DE sets more often than not. Also, Louie Simmons said that the reason DE work was originally implemented was due to the majority of lifters not being able to handle benching and squatting/deadlifting ME twice a week. For DE days, it seems the best way to go about it to hit some DE sets and see how you feel and then decide whether or not you want to keep all the sets dynamic or work up after 5 sets or so.

Anyway, I think the main thing is to make sure your technique on the big 3 is up to par and you're getting enough reps in on those lifts themselves, because this is more important to the beginner than the advanced lifter. If you feel good in that regard, try out DE work and see if it works for you. Just get a set of short bands and a set of long bands at least if you do it, they're cheap as hell on EliteFTS - Powerlifting and Strength Training Products and Knowledge for Lifters, Athletes, Coaches, and Trainers and will make the DE work much more productive.

Thanks!

 

[miaou]

My body is weird. Plus I tend to puss out on standing weighted exercises b/c I'm babying the shit out of my knees right now. My shoulders are also fairly weak. I am sure I can lift more, but that's the heaviest I go as I start to feel a bit of pressure in my knees going heavier

But you are doing RDL's with 225. How can that be ok for your knee, but 115 SOHP bother it?

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

*shrug* RDL doesn't bother my knee one bit (also pre injury my DL was in the mid-300's, but I never did RDL's until recently...). But when my arms are extended during the SOHP I feel it on the inside of my knee

 

[miaou]

There is a possibility you have a mild knee valgus. Try to forcefully contract your abs and especially the glutes and that might alleviate the pressure from the inside of your knees. Keep them contracted throughout the lift.

 

[EchoBoomer]

Sorry to hijack the thread. How much roughly should one be able to squat/bench before attempting plyometrics? I find this quite confusing because I'm unsure whether to get stronger first or just jump right into plyos. Should one be able to squat twice their bodyweight before attempting plyometrics like some say? or is that a bit exaggerated?

I have read many times that if you cannot squat twice your bodyweight than you have no business doing plyos.

BTW, squating twice your body weight is not excessive...

* 1xbwx5 is considered healthy
* 1.5xbwx5 is considered "fit"
* 2xbwx5 is considered strong
* 2.5xbwx5 is considered STRONG!!!

:icon_lol:

 

[TwoFour Lowkick]

There is a possibility you have a mild knee valgus. Try to forcefully contract your abs and especially the glutes and that might alleviate the pressure from the inside of your knees. Keep them contracted throughout the lift.

Thanks, I'll check my form. Valgus is knock knees, no? Now that the ligaments in my knees are healed, the problem I have is bad muscle imbalances particularly in my left leg (where the quad meets the knee on my right it 5cm large than the left leg) and my knee caps don't glide correctly which has led to some cartilage damage.

 

[DannyT]

I have read many times that if you cannot squat twice your bodyweight than you have no business doing plyos.

BTW, squating twice your body weight is not excessive...

* 1xbwx5 is considered healthy
* 1.5xbwx5 is considered "fit"
* 2xbwx5 is considered strong
* 2.5xbwx5 is considered STRONG!!!

:icon_lol:

That's what I've read also. Yeah, I guess just getting stronger is what I should be aiming at for now. Thanks mate.

 

[miaou]

Thanks, I'll check my form. Valgus is knock knees, no? Now that the ligaments in my knees are healed, the problem I have is bad muscle imbalances particularly in my left leg (where the quad meets the knee on my right it 5cm large than the left leg) and my knee caps don't glide correctly which has led to some cartilage damage.

I think knock knees is the same as knee valgus. Basically, the femurs might be slightly internally rotated and contracting your gluteus medius will help externally rotate them to normal. Again, I'm just offering a possibility; assuming I'm right, just flex the shit out of your entire butt and it will do the trick unless you have serious gluteus-medius activation issues.

I don't know hw bad it is, but generally speaking, for patellar maltracking terminal knee extensions with a band and full squats are your best friends. Stretching and SMR can also be helpful and, if you do have glute activation issues, so can specific glute activation exercises (like glute bridges and banded side walks).