Duran Leonard I

ya, for a money man like ray was it's hard to believe the scores for some of his fights, he shouldn't have been behind on all three scorecards for hearns, or if he did, not so far behind he needed a dramatic kayo. I think Ray said he was behind in the Kalule fight too, a fight he clearly won most rounds, he said something like "i've never understood the way they judge". who knows what goes on behind the scenes, lots of money at stake, there was a rumour that after the Benitez fight in which leonard stopped him late in the fight, with seconds to go that the ref was chased into the desert by mobsters or something.

Judging was a little strange back in the late 70's early 80's. even rounds were a lot more common. If I remember correctly, one judge scored 11 rounds even in Duran/Leonard 1.
 
What was funny was after Benitez lost, he joined Ray in celebrating with him in the ring.

Benitez was dating Ray's sister.

Guess he got fucked twice that day.
 
Judging was a little strange back in the late 70's early 80's. even rounds were a lot more common. If I remember correctly, one judge scored 11 rounds even in Duran/Leonard 1.

It was 10, and I wouldn't extrapolate that even rounds overall were move common. Corrupt judges wanted to keep Leonard in the fight that night.

By the way, that scorecard, that was 3 rounds to 2 with 10 even was the one "added incorrectly". How anybody with more than two brain cells can't add up a scorecard like that is beyond me.
 
What was funny was after Benitez lost, he joined Ray in celebrating with him in the ring.

Benitez was dating Ray's sister.

Guess he got fucked twice that day.

Benitez was an oddball, gifted fighter, he was cool as hell with that stare before the fight, Ray admitted later that it scared him. Mike trainer said that the Benitez fight was his physically toughest fight and the first time Trainer advised him to retire. Benitez was said to have trained a week for the fight, a thing which even the dementia fogged benitez was able to remind ray of the last time they met.
 
Ray lost the 1st fight to Duran and was dead even on the cards in the rematch before Duran had a freak out..
Was losing to Hearns before the stoppage
Won one of the most controversial fights ever with Hagler..

He was clowning duran, beating hin and duran quit, shaming himself in the process. He stopped hearns. And to call the hagler fight one of the most controversial fights ever is just bullshit. The majority still think ray won.
 
"owe them" no, but great fighters owe themselves and the sport. Ali, after he decisively beat Frazier and Frazier said "rematch" Ali responded "I'm not gonna duck Joe, I'm gonna give Joe as many chances as he wants" that kind of fighter doesn't exist anymore, outside of Pac,Marquez maybe.

Again, they weren't rolling on parallel tracks. Duran had to rebuild his credibility. He wasn't the same fighter. Ray DID have a career threatening injury. Hearns moved up.

Its not like ray didn't fight the best of his era. The shame is he had the injury.
 
Again, they weren't rolling on parallel tracks. Duran had to rebuild his credibility. He wasn't the same fighter. Ray DID have a career threatening injury. Hearns moved up.

Its not like ray didn't fight the best of his era. The shame is he had the injury.

I really thought he used the injury as an excuse to quit, I think he just realized he was on top (and he earned it fully) and didn't want to risk anything. Serious injury yes but ain't a great fighter in history who can just quit in his prime like that, it doesn't happen. Maybe Gene Tunney, maybe Marciano notwithstanding.
 
I really thought he used the injury as an excuse to quit, I think he just realized he was on top (and he earned it fully) and didn't want to risk anything. Serious injury yes but ain't a great fighter in history who can just quit in his prime like that, it doesn't happen. Maybe Gene Tunney, maybe Marciano notwithstanding.

That's really not what the thinking was at the time. There was genuine concern for his safety, from the dr's, those around him, and the public. And of course, he didn't stay away. He didn't come back looking the same, but he came back. And had his night in 1987. Ups and downs after that.
 
I really thought he used the injury as an excuse to quit, I think he just realized he was on top (and he earned it fully) and didn't want to risk anything. .

Nah, thats not right.

Rays detached retina was a real thing and was a bigger concern then than it is today. Happened in his fight with Bruce Finch of all people.
 
So I went back and watched this fight in its entirety for the first time in a good 7 or 8 years, scoring along as I watched, backing up the video and watching the close exchanges a couple of times and for anyone saying it "wasn't that close" is trying to start an argument. I honestly think thats the closest fight I've ever watched.

Anyway, this is how I had it and at least 4 or 5 rounds had me saying, "Wow, that is a really hard round to score."

round/Leonard/duran

1. 9-10
2.9-10
3.9-10
4.10-9
5.10-9
6.10-9
7.9-10
8.10-9
9.9-10
10. 9-10
11.10-9
12.10-9
13.10-9
14.10-9
15.10-9

144-141 Leonard

In those late rounds, Duran was being aggressive and some people like that, some people score fights based on that. I thought that while it was "Duran's type of fight" that doesn't mean he was actually winning it.

That said, I don't stand by that score at all. Like I said, I am not sure I've ever watched a closer fight.

Just watched this fight today was much closer than I had originally thought. I loved the body work from both fighters. Leonard's body work is the biggest factor how many people did this to Duran. He never look so rough up ( around this time period).

1 rd - Leonard
2 rd - Duran
3 rd - Duran
4 rd - Duran
5 rd - Leonard
6 rd- Leonard
7 rd -Duran
8 rd - Leonard
9 rd - Duran
10 rd - Duran
11 rd - Leonard
12 rd - Leonard
13 rd - Leonard
14 rd - Draw or Leonard
15 rd - Leonard


Leonard's speed was a big factor. He threw so many counter shots Which gave him the points. But like Seano said there were some really close rounds. I have to say I get why people think Duran won but I think Leonard took it just barely tho.
 
Again, they weren't rolling on parallel tracks. Duran had to rebuild his credibility. He wasn't the same fighter. Ray DID have a career threatening injury. Hearns moved up.

Its not like ray didn't fight the best of his era. The shame is he had the injury.

fighting a rematch with duran would have been a natural, ray bullshitted out of it, just like when Hearns wanted one ray said he wouldn't until Hearns grovelled and admitted he lost. Apparently tommy said he thought the fight was stopped too soon which made Master Ray angry. As far as the injury, you have you're history right, you must have been around at the time. It was a huge deal, with all the "he could go blind" talk and rays high profile it became huge news. It was serious, in fact, I still believe his left eye looks a little off ever since then. But I still honestly believe, ray being the smart man he was wanted no part of a risky bout with hagler which in my opinion he would have lost and lose all that he worked for maybe even with a kayo. But he came back with the same eye anyway and fought for years with barely any a mention, it was just one of those things that captures the public mind and becomes bigger than it really was. Oh yea, thanks for reminding me how Marvin got jerked off by Ray at the retirement ceremony where everyone thought he was challenging Marvin, Ray loved doing shit like that and the public tired of it by the time of the second hearns fight.
 
Nah, thats not right.

Rays detached retina was a real thing and was a bigger concern then than it is today. Happened in his fight with Bruce Finch of all people.



i 've heard varying accounts as to when it happened, some people thought it was the hearns fight, ray did take a nasty elbow to the eye in training which is why his eye swoll up so bad, he was training, may have been for the finch fight or a fight which never came off when he knew something was wrong. boxers pay a huge price, spar a few times and you'll get an idea, permanent changes happento you.
 
fighting a rematch with duran would have been a natural, ray bullshitted out of it,

You're forgetting that Duran briefly retired won two tuneups and lost to Benitez and Laing back to back.
 
You're forgetting that Duran briefly retired won two tuneups and lost to Benitez and Laing back to back.

not forgetting anything, the rematch would have been a natural, of course it's true that duran was in freefall, he was thrown in jail by his own countrymen, took him time to put it back together. I know, I know, a rematch? mentally he wouldn't have been ready but he should have had the option.
 
Wtf should he have had the option? He fuckin quit.
 
Because, he could have sat on his win over leonard and never fought him again, avoided him, dicked him around. But no, he gave him an immediate rematch. Joe Frazier did the same shit to Ali after the first fight, beat him and then gave every excuse in the world not to rematch him, meanwhile he fought guys like Ron Standers and he had the option of fighting ali or Foreman he chose foreman because he genuinely hated ali. When he rematched ali he wasn't the same fighter but afterwards, because he lost he mention "rematch" right away and Ali said "I"m gonna give Joe as many chances as he wants" People forget those things when they talk about that rivalry. Joe knew he stood a good chance of losing a rematch so he quit while he was ahead. Ray? He just did it to be a punk We see the situation today, between Pac/Marquez, Marquez is talking retirement, but I have the feeling that Marquez has a deep enough respect for Pacquiao that he will give a rematch and he also knows Pac never avoided a fight with him so it's sort of an unspoken dynamic, even a knucklehead like Leon Spinks gave Ali an immediate rematch when he was ordered to fight Norton because it was the right thing to do. Fighters have a code of honor of their own. Ray tried to be more than a fighter though. He truly thought everyone was beneath him.
 
Theres no rule in boxing that says you have to immediately rematch a popular fighter. Duran wasn't even popular after the Leonard rematch, he didn't even have that going for him.

Had Duran/Leonard 2 been a good fight, I could see your argument.

There was no demand for that fight.
 
it would have been interesting, but probably anticlimatic yes, duran i think acted on impulse and it devestated him when it sunk in. No one thought he'd quit, even his trainers, everyone was disgusted, if he had to do again who knows what He might do. In retrospect, it wasn't all that uncommon but with that high a profile of fight and with the popularity of both guys, you know that skews everything and he'll go to his grave with "no mas" in his obituary, rightly or wrongly.
 
Where does quitting fit in the "fighter code"?

Duran shamed himself, and it wasn't rays responsibility to help him rehabilitate.

Nothing pointed to a rematch.
 
And right now we'd be saying, "can you beleive Ray fought Duran again after the guy quit in the ring? What a joke that fight was."
 
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