Duran Leonard I

mozfonky said:
it took boxing fans a little to catch on but when they did catch on to "america's darling" they did with a vengeance, no one liked the way ray fucked around with rivals and it turned everyone against him, to this day people hate ray, grudgingly admit his greatness but hate him. Made Duran and Hearns wait nearly 10 years and for the first year after the Hagler fight fucked with everyone by putting the rematch talk out there. Just a selfish bastard. That's why everyone loved it when he got his asswhoopin by Camacho. not to mention the norris fight, sometimes I still wish he would comeback.
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He fought Duran, what 3 months after Duran beat him? How dare he make him wait so long?

Hagler was also calling out Ray when he was still a prospect as the established MW champion of the world.

Ray wanted an old Hagler, Hagler wanted a green Ray. We got old Hagler against old Ray.

Ray made him wait because he wasn't ready to fight him, plain and simple.
 
Seano said:
He fought Duran, what 3 months after Duran beat him? How dare he make him wait so long?

Hagler was also calling out Ray when he was still a prospect as the established MW champion of the world.

Ray wanted an old Hagler, Hagler wanted a green Ray. We got old Hagler against old Ray.

Ray made him wait because he wasn't ready to fight him, plain and simple.
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the perception is (and I think it's fact) that ray used his golden boy, star power to do pretty much what he wanted. you must be a ray fan, which is fine, great fighter, and really no one can criticize the most important thing which is what he did in the ring. He had no allusions as to what was expected in there and even at the points where he had nothing left, he understood that he just had to go through it. Hagler was calling out Ray up to the Hagler-Hearns fight and once he'd established himself Ray starts getting jealous, in fact I 've read recently that Ray cameback because he was jealous of Hector Camacho's ascent, I've always thought Tyson's had something to do with it too, but Hagler was the guy at the top. Ray also similarly and foolishly cameback when he saw DLH on the rise. At any rate, in the average boxing fan's mind Ray pulled shenanigans and excuses which delayed or stopped fights when he felt he had nothing to gain out of them and he did it maliciously and selfishly, that is why so many fans to this day really dislike him.
 
Sugar Ray Leonard was a fantastic fighter and one of those fighters who was a true pleasure to watch, but he also was a diva and a bit of a punk
 
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Oh yeah, Sugar Ray had all the $$$ behind him to call the shots.

After Leonard lost to Duran, Duran was interviewed by Cossell and said he wants Leonard`s money.

But when Leonard beat someone, the rematches didnt come so easy. Hearns-Leoanrd 2 was so after the fact, the fight was virtually irrelevant. Forget about a Hagler rematch. That was like after Vince Carter won the slam dunk contest, he never entered it again because he knew he could never top the prior performance.

Those be the benefits behind the business of boxing. Not saying it`s right or wrong, but it is what it is.
 
The rematches didn't come quickly because Ray beat them decisively.He outclassed Duran so badly he quit. He stopped Hearns. The was no demand for those rematches. No one wanted to see a Duran rematch because, as much as people try to deny it now, Duran was kind of a joke for a while after that Leonard fight, until he fought a decent fight against Hagler,even losing a fight or two in between. Why is that forgotten?

On the other hand, Duran/Leonard 1 could have gone either was and was a great fight.

And another thing, Ray came out of retirement to fight Hagler. Th guy had fought once in 5 years and retired again, it was quite some time later that he fought Lalonde. Its not like he was out fighting a bunch of scrubs while Hagler begged for a rematch. Hagler said, "No rematch, fuck it. Off to Italy."
 
Please excuse my ignorance as I was 10 years old when Leonard and Hagler fought but why was Hagler, the Middleweight Champion, calling out a retired Welterweight Champion?
 
Carey said:
Please excuse my ignorance as I was 10 years old when Leonard and Hagler fought but why was Hagler, the Middleweight Champion, calling out a retired Welterweight Champion?
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Money is usually the first thing to consider when asking these sorts of questions.
 
Seano said:
The rematches didn't come quickly because Ray beat them decisively.He outclassed Duran so badly he quit. He stopped Hearns. The was no demand for those rematches. No one wanted to see a Duran rematch because, as much as people try to deny it now, Duran was kind of a joke for a while after that Leonard fight, until he fought a decent fight against Hagler,even losing a fight or two in between. Why is that forgotten?

On the other hand, Duran/Leonard 1 could have gone either was and was a great fight.

And another thing, Ray came out of retirement to fight Hagler. Th guy had fought once in 5 years and retired again, it was quite some time later that he fought Lalonde. Its not like he was out fighting a bunch of scrubs while Hagler begged for a rematch. Hagler said, "No rematch, fuck it. Off to Italy."
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There have been plenty of rematches after someone lost decisively.
 
Schmelling / louis was an upset of the champ, arguello / pryor had some controversy with the bottle, and it was still the big fight avail to both. Leonard didn't owe those guys. As mentioned, its not like they all kept going on parallel tracks.
 
kflo said:
Schmelling / louis was an upset of the champ, arguello / pryor had some controversy with the bottle, and it was still the big fight avail to both. Leonard didn't owe those guys. As mentioned, its not like they all kept going on parallel tracks.
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None of that is newsworthy. Regardless, it's all business. You could come up with reasons to rematch any high profile fighters whenever you want. For Duran, you could say it's 1-1, need a third to settle it. You could say the first fight Leonard foguht the wrong fight. The second fight Duran was out of shape. For Hearns you could say Leonard was losing late in the fight. Blah blah blah.

It's not a matter of owing things to people. Not like Leonard owed Howard or Finch or whoever it was he fought after either. Just stating the obvious, the business of boxing...if Leonard wanted a fight, he got it, and usually on favorable terms. He never had to take the short end of the stick. Not much different than De La Hoya.

Golden boy olympians who could make mounds of cash fighting whoever they wanted, and other fighters out there had to give up stuff to get into Leonard's pocket and get paid way more than they ever had prior.
 
CEROVFC said:
None of that is newsworthy. Regardless, it's all business. You could come up with reasons to rematch any high profile fighters whenever you want. For Duran, you could say it's 1-1, need a third to settle it. You could say the first fight Leonard foguht the wrong fight. The second fight Duran was out of shape. For Hearns you could say Leonard was losing late in the fight. Blah blah blah.

It's not a matter of owing things to people. Not like Leonard owed Howard or Finch or whoever it was he fought after either. Just stating the obvious, the business of boxing...if Leonard wanted a fight, he got it, and usually on favorable terms. He never had to take the short end of the stick. Not much different than De La Hoya.

Golden boy olympians who could make mounds of cash fighting whoever they wanted, and other fighters out there had to give up stuff to get into Leonard's pocket and get paid way more than they ever had prior.
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agreed. leonard obviously had the power.

but another rematch with duran just wasn't the fight to make back then. and neither was hearns.

in terms of paydays, yeah, guys have to play the game. roy got to do it too.
 
Seano said:
The rematches didn't come quickly because Ray beat them decisively.He outclassed Duran so badly he quit. He stopped Hearns. The was no demand for those rematches."
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Ray lost the 1st fight to Duran and was dead even on the cards in the rematch before Duran had a freak out..
Was losing to Hearns before the stoppage
Won one of the most controversial fights ever with Hagler..

He bullshitted around with those rematches because he was the 80's Floyd Mayweather in a lot of ways.. How can i make the most money with the least risk? I'll wait 10 years for Hearns again.. Maybe Marvin wants to fight again in 1995..
 
Dbreiden83080 said:
Ray lost the 1st fight to Duran and was dead even on the cards in the rematch before Duran had a freak out..
Was losing to Hearns before the stoppage
Won one of the most controversial fights ever with Hagler..

He bullshitted around with those rematches because he was the 80's Floyd Mayweather in a lot of ways.. How can i make the most money with the least risk? I'll wait 10 years for Hearns again.. Maybe Marvin wants to fight again in 1995..
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believe leonard was up a couple of points when teh second fight ended.

But yes, his inactivity, and stipulation tilting for lack of a better term really limit his greatness more so than things related to his ability.

There's a big camp of boxing historians that dismiss the modern era entirely, partially as Leonard's "tactics" for lack of a better term have become the norm for boxing.
 
Carey said:
Please excuse my ignorance as I was 10 years old when Leonard and Hagler fought but why was Hagler, the Middleweight Champion, calling out a retired Welterweight Champion?
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Hagler was envious of Ray's money and fame, he wanted that, and it's a story as old as the bible, or the dog with the bone in his mouth looking into a lake, remember that one? But Sugar Ray was a superstar, took him 2 or 3 years to get a title whereas Hagler took about 7 and was pelted in the ring when he won, Hagler got robbed, ignored by promoters, avoided because he was good, in comparison he thought Ray had everything handed to him. Ray had 7 up commercials, anti-drug commercials, he basically filled the personality vacuum that Ali left. Hagler was jealous, bitter, envious, paranoid and he plain believed he was better than any fighter on the planet, he wanted his chance to prove it. The fact that Ray dicked him around for 5 years and Hagler lost will forever burn a hole in Marvin's psyche, that was my first thought when the decision was announced, "how will he live with himself". I firmly believe that ray was flat out scared of hagler, you see it in the body language when they spoke in the early 80's, and the risk/reward ratio wasn't right for him at that time. Let's say he fought hagler in 82 and he'd have gotten squashed what then? So when Hagler became a star in his own right, when Leonard began to get jealous of Tyson, Hagler, Camacho he figured the risk/reward ratio was perfect because no one expected him to win, no one. That's my take.
 
kflo said:
Schmelling / louis was an upset of the champ, arguello / pryor had some controversy with the bottle, and it was still the big fight avail to both. Leonard didn't owe those guys. As mentioned, its not like they all kept going on parallel tracks.
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"owe them" no, but great fighters owe themselves and the sport. Ali, after he decisively beat Frazier and Frazier said "rematch" Ali responded "I'm not gonna duck Joe, I'm gonna give Joe as many chances as he wants" that kind of fighter doesn't exist anymore, outside of Pac,Marquez maybe.
 
Dbreiden83080 said:
Ray lost the 1st fight to Duran and was dead even on the cards in the rematch before Duran had a freak out..
Was losing to Hearns before the stoppage
Won one of the most controversial fights ever with Hagler..

He bullshitted around with those rematches because he was the 80's Floyd Mayweather in a lot of ways.. How can i make the most money with the least risk? I'll wait 10 years for Hearns again.. Maybe Marvin wants to fight again in 1995..
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ya, for a money man like ray was it's hard to believe the scores for some of his fights, he shouldn't have been behind on all three scorecards for hearns, or if he did, not so far behind he needed a dramatic kayo. I think Ray said he was behind in the Kalule fight too, a fight he clearly won most rounds, he said something like "i've never understood the way they judge". who knows what goes on behind the scenes, lots of money at stake, there was a rumour that after the Benitez fight in which leonard stopped him late in the fight, with seconds to go that the ref was chased into the desert by mobsters or something.
 
Dbreiden83080 said:
Ray lost the 1st fight to Duran and was dead even on the cards in the rematch before Duran had a freak out..
Was losing to Hearns before the stoppage
Won one of the most controversial fights ever with Hagler..

He bullshitted around with those rematches because he was the 80's Floyd Mayweather in a lot of ways.. How can i make the most money with the least risk? I'll wait 10 years for Hearns again.. Maybe Marvin wants to fight again in 1995..
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Spin it however you want. Duran was boxings joke after the second leonard fight. No one cared about a rematch and Duran went on to lose to lesser guys then Ray in his next couple of fights.

Also both Hearns and Duran went on to 154 to rebuild while Ray was still a welter.

You can argue that a Hearns rematch could have taken place earlier I suppose but not a third Duran fight.
 
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