Drastically different game in gi and nogi

[tap21]

Drew already schooled you on this, but to address your example:

Judo doesn't require better technique than Greco, but if you were to employ a pummeling-based Greco bodylock game in judo, it would require a higher level of (offensive) pummeling skill than if trying to execute the same game in a leotard.

Similarly, pulling off judo style foot sweeps at arm's length in (freestyle) wrestling is more challenging than in judo, since the lack of gi grips makes off-balancing someone at that range (e.g. using collar-tie & wrist control) a lot harder.

Again, making my point for me. DIFFERENT techniques are higher percentage in gi and no-gi.

 

[tap21]

Next, a person might say, "Yeah, certain moves are lower percentage in the gi so that means you have to have more precision in the gi to make them work."

But, let's be real. That's like me saying,"Spider guard is lower percentage in no-gi so that means you have to use much "better", "more precise", and "higher level" spider guard in no-gi." That's a slanted and misleading statement. The heart of the matter is that DIFFERENT guards are better suited to the rules of no-gi and gi...not that no-gi is a more exquisite art that requires much "better" technique.

We all agree that DIFFERENT techniques are better suited to each of no-gi and gi.

But to characterize that circumstance by saying that a certain technique requires you to have better technique to apply under one rule set or the other (and by "rule set" I mean, among other things, being allowed to wear certain clothing and being allowed to grab it) is a slanted, misleading, and pejorative characterization.

 

[TheFinerDetails]

Next, a person might say, "Yeah, certain moves are lower percentage in the gi so that means you have to have more precision in the gi to make them work."

But, let's be real. That's like me saying,"Spider guard is lower percentage in no-gi so that means you have to use much "better", "more precise", and "higher level" spider guard in no-gi." That's a slanted and misleading statement. The heart of the matter is that DIFFERENT guards are better suited to the rules of no-gi and gi...not that no-gi is a more exquisite art that requires much "better" technique.

We all agree that DIFFERENT techniques are better suited to each of no-gi and gi.

But to characterize that circumstance by saying that a certain technique requires you to have better technique to apply under one rule set or the other (and by "rule set" I mean, among other things, being allowed to wear certain clothing and being allowed to grab it) is a slanted, misleading, and pejorative characterization.

It's like trying to peel an apple the way you peel a mandarin, you need different technique because it's better suited to the situation.

 

[tap21]

It's like trying to peel an apple the way you peel a mandarin, you need different technique because it's better suited to the situation.

Exactly. It's not that you need to use "higher level" orange peeling technique on the apple. It's that you should be using an apple peeling technique on the apple.

 

[Shemhazai]

Next, a person might say, "Yeah, certain moves are lower percentage in the gi so that means you have to have more precision in the gi to make them work."

But, let's be real. That's like me saying,"Spider guard is lower percentage in no-gi so that means you have to use much "better", "more precise", and "higher level" spider guard in no-gi." That's a slanted and misleading statement. The heart of the matter is that DIFFERENT guards are better suited to the rules of no-gi and gi...not that no-gi is a more exquisite art that requires much "better" technique.

We all agree that DIFFERENT techniques are better suited to each of no-gi and gi.

But to characterize that circumstance by saying that a certain technique requires you to have better technique to apply under one rule set or the other (and by "rule set" I mean, among other things, being allowed to wear certain clothing and being allowed to grab it) is a slanted, misleading, and pejorative characterization.

You're willfully ignoring the fact that even though certain moves are best suited to either gi or no gi, there is a massive overlap. Lots of techniques exist in both formats, and may not even be superior in either, just different.

First of all, certain fundamentals are needed regardless – like positional escapes, guard retention, general passing and control principles. Are there minor differences in how these can be done with and without the gi? Sure. But the vast body of high percentage basics in this department is pretty uniform – regardless of the uniform, so to speak.

Secondly, most techniques have both components that are made easier by friction and components that are made harder by it. This means that the same technique often works just as well in gi or no gi, but with different emphasis as to where the challenge lies. I would say this is the case with most of the 'no gi' techniques.

For instance, sinking an arm triangle or NS choke will be easier in no gi than in the gi, due to the arm slipping into place, but keeping and controlling the position will be easier in the gi, due to friction giving the hold more purchase on the opponent's body. Passing the half guard will be easier in no gi, in the sense that you will more easily be able to free your leg, but harder in the sense that your upper body control is less secure. I could go on and on with examples like these.

The bottom line is that there is a huge number of techniques that work just as well with and without the gi, and doing both formats will sharpen all aspects of those techniques, rather than skewing your skill in favor of reliance on either slipperiness or friction/grips.

 

[Drew Foster]

You're making my point for me. DIFFERENT techniques are higher percentage in the gi and nogi.

I wasn't addressing that point. I was addressing this one: "Doing things in the gi doesn't require "better", "higher level", or "more precise" technique. "

I was saying that naked chokes (arm-in or arm-out) in the gi does require them to be a little bit more dialed in and sharpened up.

As far as this argument, I'm in this camp below with Shemhazai, because again, using the arm triangles example, if I am sliding in a darce/brabo, it's definitely harder in the gi, but once I have it locked, it's usually more difficult to escape, and easier to use as a controlling position. I'm going to make the logical fallacy of "argument from authority" but if you watch the most recent BJJ Hacks video with Claudio Calasans, he talks about exactly this in regards to his rolling guillotine/front headlock. He says that in the gi it's easier to control their head, and harder for them to slip out. Yet, I'm sure that most of us agree that actually finishing a guillotine is slightly easier in nogi. Here's the video: skip to 5:08 and he shows it and talks about it.

You're willfully ignoring the fact that even though certain moves are best suited to either gi or no gi, there is a massive overlap. Lots of techniques exist in both formats, and may not even be superior in either, just different.

First of all, certain fundamentals are needed regardless – like positional escapes, guard retention, general passing and control principles. Are there minor differences in how these can be done with and without the gi? Sure. But the vast body of high percentage basics in this department is pretty uniform – regardless of the uniform, so to speak.

Secondly, most techniques have both components that are made easier by friction and components that are made harder by it. This means that the same technique often works just as well in gi or no gi, but with different emphasis as to where the challenge lies. I would say this is the case with most of the 'no gi' techniques.

For instance, sinking an arm triangle or NS choke will be easier in no gi than in the gi, due to the arm slipping into place, but keeping and controlling the position will be easier in the gi, due to friction giving the hold more purchase on the opponent's body. Passing the half guard will be easier in no gi, in the sense that you will more easily be able to free your leg, but harder in the sense that your upper body control is less secure. I could go on and on with examples like these.

The bottom line is that there is a huge number of techniques that work just as well with and without the gi, and doing both formats will sharpen all aspects of those techniques, rather than skewing your skill in favor of reliance on either slipperiness or friction/grips.

 

[Drew Foster]

Drew,

Any tips/videos to help landing guillotines in the gi? High elbow is my go-to in no gi but now that I'm training in the gi it just doesn't feel right.

I'd post some Marcelo Garcia videos, but he really doesn't do a lot of guillotines in the gi. he does a lot of north souths and RNCs. I think Calasans is probably the best example man. Check out Hello Japan's highlight of him on youtube. There's a bunch of good guillotines on there in the gi, and maybe you could ask him what matches those came from? He might even post on this forum? I'll attach the highlight, and a Jeff Glover instructional for the arm-in guillotine that works really well.

What really helps me, arm-in or arm-out, is kind of what Glover shows, and trying to just get my wrist or the blade of my thumb under their chin, and then slide over slightly. If you try to jam your whole forearm under their chin, between your sleeve and their collars, it'll probably not get fully in there. If you can get the top of your wrist in there like I was saying, you can still feel your actual skin up against their throat. Then if you like a deeper or more shallow guillotine, you're already on the throat, and you can shimmy your arm across until you get the depth you like.

I like the brabo/darce because wrapping the head requires less precision that getting under the chin, so I feel like I don't need as much to get it going. So I tried, that's about the best I have. I usually try to just get under the chin very shallow, move to the lower third/half of my forearm, and go high-elbow to finish. I've also been working the arm-in finish that Glover shows below, and I'm having mixed success.

 

[tap21]

You're willfully ignoring the fact that even though certain moves are best suited to either gi or no gi, there is a massive overlap. Lots of techniques exist in both formats, and may not even be superior in either, just different.

First of all, certain fundamentals are needed regardless

 

[tap21]

I wasn't addressing that point. I was addressing this one: "Doing things in the gi doesn't require "better", "higher level", or "more precise" technique. "

I was saying that naked chokes (arm-in or arm-out) in the gi does require them to be a little bit more dialed in and sharpened up.

As far as this argument, I'm in this camp below with Shemhazai, because again, using the arm triangles example, if I am sliding in a darce/brabo, it's definitely harder in the gi, but once I have it locked, it's usually more difficult to escape, and easier to use as a controlling position. I'm going to make the logical fallacy of "argument from authority" but if you watch the most recent BJJ Hacks video with Claudio Calasans, he talks about exactly this in regards to his rolling guillotine/front headlock. He says that in the gi it's easier to control their head, and harder for them to slip out. Yet, I'm sure that most of us agree that actually finishing a guillotine is slightly easier in nogi. Here's the video: skip to 5:08 and he shows it and talks about it.

I hear you and I totally appreciate your attention to discussing this without resorting to logical fallacy.

But, my point about the techniques being "different" instead of "better" directly applies to your thought that "naked chokes (arm-in or arm-out) in the gi does require them to be a little bit more dialed in and sharpened up."

When you say the techniques have to be "sharpened up", what you are really saying is that they have to be modified for gi. My argument is that the modification is not a dialing in or sharpening up of the technique. It is a change so that the technique can be done slightly DIFFERENTLY for gi.

It's not really "sharpened up", "dialed in", "higher level", "more precise", or "better" it's just DIFFERERENT.

The rules about grabbing clothes and attire force you to do it slightly differently. To describe it using a superlative is slanted and misleading.

Calasans statements in the video actually support the conclusion that the technique is just done DIFFERENTLY in the gi. But let's not go down that dead end road of appeal to authority.

Let's think about this generically:
Applying X move in Y context requires modifications that are not required when you apply X move in Z context.

If those modifications are not required in Z context then can you say they are "better"? No. They are just specific to Y context. They are just DIFFERENT depending on the context.

 

[Drew Foster]

I hear you and I totally appreciate your attention to discussing this without resorting to logical fallacy.

But, my point about the techniques being "different" instead of "better" directly applies to your thought that "naked chokes (arm-in or arm-out) in the gi does require them to be a little bit more dialed in and sharpened up."

When you say the techniques have to be "sharpened up", what you are really saying is that they have to be modified for gi. My argument is that the modification is not a dialing in or sharpening up of the technique. It is a change so that the technique can be done slightly DIFFERENTLY for gi.

It's not really "sharpened up", "dialed in", "higher level", "more precise", or "better" it's just DIFFERERENT.

The rules about grabbing clothes and attire force you to do it slightly differently. To describe it using a superlative is slanted and misleading.

Calasans statements in the video actually support the conclusion that the technique is just done DIFFERENTLY in the gi. But let's not go down that dead end road of appeal to authority.

Let's think about this generically:
Applying X move in Y context requires modifications that are not required when you apply X move in Z context.

If those modifications are not required in Z context then can you say they are "better"? No. They are just specific to Y context. They are just DIFFERENT depending on the context.

Maybe we are playing a semantics game, I'm not sure. What I say sharpened up, I don't mean different, at least I don't think I do. I don't do it any differently. When I do the brabo, I just do it. In the gi or nogi, I do it exactly the same. So take a nogi only example, I may land 2 brabos, one may be a bit cleaner than the other. I'm saying that if I took the sloppier brabo, and tried to do it in the gi, that it might be a little bit harder to finish than the cleaner one. But between the 2 of them I didn't actively try to do anything differently.

Again, you might think I'm making your point, and now I'm a bit confused, so maybe I am. Maybe Shemhazai can explain what I'm saying better than I can. I don't do any specific modifications between what I'm wearing. With the guillotine I can think of a slight modification that I do between gi and nogi, but for everything else I've named, I can't think of anything that I do differently. I just slide my arms, body, and legs into position, and finish.

With the high-elbow guillotine for example, I may focus a little bit more on getting my hands under the chin, and then sliding my arm across. In nogi I might just go ahead and get my forearm directly under the chin. That's an example of what I would consider a modification/difference in the application of a technique. With all the other naked style chokes, I don't make alterations like that.

You say that "The rules about grabbing clothes and attire force you to do it slightly differently." I'm honestly trying to think of how clothing and attire forces me to do those things differently, and besides that guillotine exception, I can't think of anything.

I'm trying. I might be misunderstanding you.

 

[Shemhazai]

This is a distinction without a difference. You've basically said certain parts of certain techniques work DIFFERENTLY in gi and no-gi.

Differently in terms of which part of the execution will be the most difficult, yes; the execution, however, and the technique, remains largely the same.

In any event, the difference you were talking about in your examples (and basing your position on), was one of using other moves in one format than in another – e.g. spider guard in the gi but not in no gi – as opposed to differences in the nuances of execution. If you want to have an entirely different discussion, do let us know.

 

[tap21]

Maybe we are playing a semantics game, I'm not sure. What I say sharpened up, I don't mean different, at least I don't think I do. I don't do it any differently. When I do the brabo, I just do it. In the gi or nogi, I do it exactly the same. So take a nogi only example, I may land 2 brabos, one may be a bit cleaner than the other. I'm saying that if I took the sloppier brabo, and tried to do it in the gi, that it might be a little bit harder to finish than the cleaner one. But between the 2 of them I didn't actively try to do anything differently.

Again, you might think I'm making your point, and now I'm a bit confused, so maybe I am. Maybe Shemhazai can explain what I'm saying better than I can. I don't do any specific modifications between what I'm wearing. With the guillotine I can think of a slight modification that I do between gi and nogi, but for everything else I've named, I can't think of anything that I do differently. I just slide my arms, body, and legs into position, and finish.

With the high-elbow guillotine for example, I may focus a little bit more on getting my hands under the chin, and then sliding my arm across. In nogi I might just go ahead and get my forearm directly under the chin. That's an example of what I would consider a modification/difference in the application of a technique. With all the other naked style chokes, I don't make alterations like that.

You say that "The rules about grabbing clothes and attire force you to do it slightly differently." I'm honestly trying to think of how clothing and attire forces me to do those things differently, and besides that guillotine exception, I can't think of anything.

I'm trying. I might be misunderstanding you.

I appreciate the honesty here.

I am reading that with certain techniques there are different finishing percentages in the gi and with other techniques you have to focus on different parts of the technique in the gi.

This is consistent with my view that doing these techniques in the gi requires modifications because different techniques are higher percentage and you have to focus on different parts of other techniques.

You have to do things differently in this different context but not better.

 

[Shemhazai]

You have to do things differently in this different context but not better.

You're trying really hard to defend no gi against an accusation that nobody made.

Doing something in a format that makes it harder, makes you better at that thing. That doesn't mean that other things aren't harder in another format.

 

[Drew Foster]

You're trying really hard to defend no gi against an accusation that nobody made.

Doing something in a format that makes it harder, makes you better at that thing. That doesn't mean that other things aren't harder in another format.

All day. I don't know if tap21 knows, but I would train no-gi all the damn time if I had that option. You're heavy into it also. We aren't attacking anything.

 

[tap21]

All day. I don't know if tap21 knows, but I would train no-gi all the damn time if I had that option. You're heavy into it also. We aren't attacking anything.

I don't think you're being dicks or anything. I do think this "harder" vs. "different" characterization is misleading and slanted (maybe unintentionally). It's just my opinion. It's okay that we disagree.

I like that you would go 100% no-gi if you could.

 

[Bubblun]

Drew already schooled you on this, but to address your example:

Judo doesn't require better technique than Greco, but if you were to employ a pummeling-based Greco bodylock game in judo, it would require a higher level of (offensive) pummeling skill than if trying to execute the same game in a leotard.

Similarly, pulling off judo style foot sweeps at arm's length in (freestyle) wrestling is more challenging than in judo, since the lack of gi grips makes off-balancing someone at that range (e.g. using collar-tie & wrist control) a lot harder.

i understand what you are saying, but i don't agree with the example you use.

the body lock is my best takedown, i do it all the time, but in the gi guys just grab my collar or the sleeve and create distance, so no bodylock.
it is true it's harder doing the bodylock in the gi, but it doesn't mean i am not proficient at it, the move work in the gi as good as in nogi, but it require a completely different skill to get in position, the judo grip fighting and my judo game is non existent.

actually to learn a new move a person should drill the move with less "hindrances" as possible, usually with a non resisting partner.
after he learned the technique, he can try to catch people during rolling, but i don't agree with using a technique against all odds just to get better.
try to use the RNC in the gi is harder and it is not smart, the bow and arrow choke is much higher percentage.
trying to force the RNC in the gi is not making your RNC better in my opinion.

the same with the guillotine and the darce, if you can guillotine and darce a lot of guys in the gi, good for you, you have world class chokes, but it doesn't mean a guy that want to get good at guillotine and darce should try those moves in the gi a lot.

most of the times (non collar) chokes are harder in the gi because of friction and the opponent can grab some part of your gi to slow you down.
i remember watching a video of Marcelo explaining that speed is everything in getting the tap with the guillotine, that's why he use the classic hand clasp instead of other stronger hand clasp, because it is faster.

 

[Shemhazai]

i understand what you are saying, but i don't agree with the example you use.

the body lock is my best takedown, i do it all the time, but in the gi guys just grab my collar or the sleeve and create distance, so no bodylock.
it is true it's harder doing the bodylock in the gi, but it doesn't mean i am not proficient at it, the move work in the gi as good as in nogi, but it require a completely different skill to get in position, the judo grip fighting and my judo game is non existent.

actually to learn a new move a person should drill the move with less "hindrances" as possible, usually with a non resisting partner.
after he learned the technique, he can try to catch people during rolling, but i don't agree with using a technique against all odds just to get better.
try to use the RNC in the gi is harder and it is not smart, the bow and arrow choke is much higher percentage.
trying to force the RNC in the gi is not making your RNC better in my opinion.

the same with the guillotine and the darce, if you can guillotine and darce a lot of guys in the gi, good for you, you have world class chokes, but it doesn't mean a guy that want to get good at guillotine and darce should try those moves in the gi a lot.

most of the times (non collar) chokes are harder in the gi because of friction and the opponent can grab some part of your gi to slow you down.
i remember watching a video of Marcelo explaining that speed is everything in getting the tap with the guillotine, that's why he use the classic hand clasp instead of other stronger hand clasp, because it is faster.

This is where the discussion gets complicated. I'll agree that trying to pummel for double underhooks in the gi is probably a waste of time

 

[Drew Foster]

i understand what you are saying, but i don't agree with the example you use.

the body lock is my best takedown, i do it all the time, but in the gi guys just grab my collar or the sleeve and create distance, so no bodylock.
it is true it's harder doing the bodylock in the gi, but it doesn't mean i am not proficient at it, the move work in the gi as good as in nogi, but it require a completely different skill to get in position, the judo grip fighting and my judo game is non existent.

actually to learn a new move a person should drill the move with less "hindrances" as possible, usually with a non resisting partner.
after he learned the technique, he can try to catch people during rolling, but i don't agree with using a technique against all odds just to get better.
try to use the RNC in the gi is harder and it is not smart, the bow and arrow choke is much higher percentage.
trying to force the RNC in the gi is not making your RNC better in my opinion.

the same with the guillotine and the darce, if you can guillotine and darce a lot of guys in the gi, good for you, you have world class chokes, but it doesn't mean a guy that want to get good at guillotine and darce should try those moves in the gi a lot.

most of the times (non collar) chokes are harder in the gi because of friction and the opponent can grab some part of your gi to slow you down.
i remember watching a video of Marcelo explaining that speed is everything in getting the tap with the guillotine, that's why he use the classic hand clasp instead of other stronger hand clasp, because it is faster.

Obviously I'm with Shem's post above this. I also wanted to add that I think doing a RNC "against all odds" is being a little hyperbolic. At the end of the day we're basically all just grown ups that are playing a game. That leads me to my next point, which is where you say that trying a RNC in the gi "is not smart."

Who says so? Why not? If you're trying to be win the worlds, is it maybe easier to focus on collar chokes? Sure. But to objectively say that something is smart or not seems silly to me. If you're a person training for life benefits, and you're not some super serious competitor, trying to look at what is high percentage vs. what isn't isn't that important. Obviously if someone is trying to go for the Von Flue choke every single roll, someone should probably pull him aside and let him know that's not the best idea, but I certainly don't think that if someone wants to start rear naked choking people in the gi, an intervention is not needed.

You used the example of Marcelo not using guillotines in the gi, but he uses RNCs and NS chokes all the time in the gi.

You mention how the gi can make these chokes harder, and you're absolutely right. You say that someone that wants to get good at guillotines and darces shouldn't just try them in the gi a lot for the sake of getting good at them.

I think in a way, that's what me and Shemhazai are saying. You shouldn't. You should just try them a lot period, no matter what you're wearing. Besides very specific things like spider guard that require the gi, my take on it is just grapple. Do what you want to do, and you'll probably get good at it. The similarities between gi and nogi are much more similar than the differences. I'll say what Ryan Hall said on that podcast that was posted yesterday: "Physics doesn't change."

Good positioning and good movement is going to be good positioning and good movement, no matter what you are or aren't wearing. The rule sets between types of competiton are largely what changes things.

I think we've about run this discussion into the ground, and thanks for the input.