Double standard(Sonnen/Silva)

[FIGHT FAN]

OP I understand your comment because YES when a good fighter loses via submission everyone goes on and on about they need to learn sub defense.

For the record OP, THEY ARE RIGHT!

You have no business being an MMA fighter and being sub'd time and again. Even if you are NOT sub'd often you should still work on your mat game.

BUT if you wanted to use an example you could have chosen most any other fight from that night and had a better argument, as it was you selected as your example the fight where the wrestler was submitted.

I already admitted; that the critics are indeed correct in their assessment, but, Chael exposed some flaws in Silva's game as well.

 

[RibCrusher**]

We have heard plenty of criticisms being thrown Chael Sonnen's way; he cant defend the triangle; he needs to work his bjj etc.. etc... Yes i agree with all of that. Chael needs to stop being so proud(or ignorant) and stop repeating the same mistakes. Now to the flip side; Anderson Silva got taken down---on multiple occasions-- with total ease, and bullied around for almost the duration of the fight, yet nobody on this forum, is up in arms; calling for Anderson to take some wrestling lessons. Why is that? Why the double standard?

sonnen rag dolled okami, ok. no way is AS going to have good enough TDD.

sonnen is an olympic alternate wrestler.

AS is not an ADCC champ or anything like that.

AS TDD is his striking.

 

[FIGHT FAN]

sonnen rag dolled okami, ok. no way is AS going to have good enough TDD.

sonnen is an olympic alternate wrestler.

AS is not an ADCC champ or anything like that.

AS TDD is his striking.

Good points.

 

[thegreenblender]

I hope everyone here who is hating on Sonnnen for getting submitted again knows, they are in reality shitting on Anderson's BJJ. Sonnen fought two blackbelts in bouts before Anderson and proved that he had made tremendous gains in his submission defense. I have NO IDEA why everybody thinks Sonnen hasn't improved at all, when it took 23 minutes for a Nogueira brother's blackbelt and P4P best fighter to put a submission on this guy. Jeez, guys. Why not just say, "Chael sucks cocks in hell!" for every post? It'd probably be briefer and more to the point you haters are making.

 

[thegreenblender]

Seriously, Sonnen's submission defense has improved ten-fold. Some of those submission losses were early in his career, a couple later to absolutely world class guys, and lately his submission defense got him through two blackbelts to get a title shot, and nearly took him to victory over the MW champion. I really don't understand how people can hate Chael so much here. Did he not make any new fans with this performance? He gained no one's respect?

I mean, I can understand that you may not like Chael because he's a loudmouth or he isn't a member of your political party. Personally, i think he's a bit of a moron. But he brought it to Silva like no one has and made me a fan.

 

[Dono**]

Silva wasn't even trying to defend the takedown in the first three rounds

Because he was rocked and couldn't defend it. I'm sure his gameplan was to lay on his back and have the shit beaten out of him.

Troll.

 

[mgbyrnc]

andersons plan for the fight was to submit chael on the ground.
he knew he couldnt take chael down, so the answer was to let chael take him down

you might notice in the first round; anderson wasnt even trying to strike - he completely dropped his hands. he was simply waiting for chael to take him down. he was basically saying "cmon chael, you cant knock me out, so take me down already!"

of course anderson was tired, as having a national champion wrestler in your guard for 20 minutes striking is kinda ridiculous. but im pretty sure that NONE of chaels strikes "rocked" or even hurt anderson at all.

chael badmouthed jiu jitsu, and he badmouthed the noguiera brothers, saying that a blackbelt from them was like a toy in a happy meal.

anderson told rodrigo that he was going to submit chael for them and for jiu jitsu. this is also why anderson wore his gi before and after the fight.

i seriously believe that anderson could have dispatched chael on the feet easily. but this was not the plan.

 

[thegreenblender]

Because he was rocked and couldn't defend it. I'm sure his gameplan was to lay on his back and have the shit beaten out of him.

Troll.

Seriously, I don't get talk like this. Why should we just shit all over a fighter's performance like this? This is like saying Silva planned to get taken down, mounted, and pounded by Lutter. Do you know how insulting to Travis such a statement would be? No Travis, you never had the champ in danger...he played you like a fiddle. I understand that Silva is an artist and an incredible fighter, but there is no reason to pretend that he's only ever in danger by his consent.

 

[thegreenblender]

This whole fight has shown me a level of retardedness I didn't think possible. I cannot believe my eyes when I see posts that indicate that getting tooled for 23 minutes was part of some grand plan from Silva. He could not stop the takedown, he could not get off on the feet, he couldn't even come close to submitting Chael for the vast majority of the fight. What he did do, was finally put everything together in the last round to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat--like a true champion. I respect the hell out of both fighters for this performance....I'm really shaking my head here as to why more people aren't doing the same.

 

[fourfif**]

I cannot believe my eyes when I see posts that indicate that getting tooled for 23 minutes was part of some grand plan from Silva.

Stupidest shit I've ever heard. Just ignore that dumb shit.

Overall, fantastic fight!! great performance by both fighters. I definitely got my money's worth, that's for sure.

 

[Bunique4life05]

I believe Chael Sonnen was great and executive his game perfectly up to the point of getting submitted. Those I can't believe a 100% that Anderson's game plan was to submitted Chael. I believe that was an option but I can safely say they plan to take Chael on feet. But did not plan on Chael being as good as was on his feet that night. I watch Chael in wec and thought he was powerful wrestler but when he came to UFC he shows some good promise on his feet.

Anderson was setting up that triangle up repeatedly every time he was taken down but was not very effective with or for that matter his guard. Yes Anderson is BJJ BB but it not at all at same standard as Maia, Penn, Kenny, even GSP. They are very crafted off their back and also there BJJ training transitions very well to MMA. Now I know I going to get slack for this but Anderson BJJ was very poor. His guard was sloppy when closed and most of time was open to often for no apparent reason. He may be a beast and true black belt with a gi but for mma it was sub par.

Now to the submission of night by Anderson Silva I believe was 75 percent luck. Chael took him down and dip his left shoulder down in the process and pretty much was game over. Those it still took Anderson Silva to recognize his mistake and come on top. It's funny when Anderson Silva didn't try for triangle he end up getting when he wasn't trying to setup. That's why I believe Anderson got lucky to extent I still have respect for him as fighter as well Chael Sonnen.

I can't wait for the rematch and I still be going for Chael Sonnen I just have more repect for him and what he stands for.

 

[Belatucadros]

I'll never say his gameplan was to get beaten up.

But I do know his sprawl surprised the fuck out of Chael in that last round.

I think once he got rocked in the first and was taken down, he figured "well, okay" - I imagine he wanted to do more damage first.

But he didn't seem like he was trying to get back to his feet as much as someone in a title fight should.

Was it his plan to be beaten up(such as he was - I think Chael took the worst of it), probably not at all.

Was he preferring a submission win? I'd say absolutely.

 

[redaxe]

andersons plan for the fight was to submit chael on the ground.
he knew he couldnt take chael down, so the answer was to let chael take him down

you might notice in the first round; anderson wasnt even trying to strike - he completely dropped his hands. he was simply waiting for chael to take him down. he was basically saying "cmon chael, you cant knock me out, so take me down already!"

of course anderson was tired, as having a national champion wrestler in your guard for 20 minutes striking is kinda ridiculous. but im pretty sure that NONE of chaels strikes "rocked" or even hurt anderson at all.

chael badmouthed jiu jitsu, and he badmouthed the noguiera brothers, saying that a blackbelt from them was like a toy in a happy meal.

anderson told rodrigo that he was going to submit chael for them and for jiu jitsu. this is also why anderson wore his gi before and after the fight.

i seriously believe that anderson could have dispatched chael on the feet easily. but this was not the plan.

YES! BINGO! Thank you!

 

[fourfif**]

I'll never say his gameplan was to get beaten up.

But I do know his sprawl surprised the fuck out of Chael in that last round.

I think once he got rocked in the first and was taken down, he figured "well, okay" - I imagine he wanted to do more damage first.

But he didn't seem like he was trying to get back to his feet as much as someone in a title fight should.

Was it his plan to be beaten up(such as he was - I think Chael took the worst of it), probably not at all.

Was he preferring a submission win? I'd say absolutely.

this is very reasonable. what a 180 i just did in this thread. I was just venting because some people were calling a fix in another thread and even here at my house when we were watching the fight, and I don't believe that at all, but yeah, there where times where it looked like "why the hell did he do that??" (throw a lazy kick against an olympic level wrestler, hands down taking shots) but I know he wasn't planning on getting rocked and put on his ass or otherwise taking punishment on the ground. I do believe though that he wanted that sub.

 

[MMA junkie]

Now to the submission of night by Anderson Silva I believe was 75 percent luck. Chael took him down and dip his left shoulder down in the process and pretty much was game over. Those it still took Anderson Silva to recognize his mistake and come on top. It's funny when Anderson Silva didn't try for triangle he end up getting when he wasn't trying to setup. That's why I believe Anderson got lucky to extent I still have respect for him as fighter as well Chael Sonnen.

I can't wait for the rematch and I still be going for Chael Sonnen I just have more repect for him and what he stands for.

I think you need to rewatch the fight. Around the 2:30 mark Anderson has wrist control. Around the 3:00 minute mark Anderson postures up, using his momentum on his way down to pull Sonnen down. Sonnen eats an elbow or two, and then covers up from the elbows with his posture being broken and gets triangled. Looks completely setup to me.

Here's the last round:
Anderson Silva vs Chael Sonnen Final Round UFC 117 Fight Video - iViewTube.com

(Can't embed for some reason click the link above)

You can also watch the explanation:
YouTube - ‪Silva vs. Sonnen UFC 117 (Gracie Breakdown)‬‎

 

[KenkaBancho]

andersons plan for the fight was to submit chael on the ground.
he knew he couldnt take chael down, so the answer was to let chael take him down

you might notice in the first round; anderson wasnt even trying to strike - he completely dropped his hands. he was simply waiting for chael to take him down. he was basically saying "cmon chael, you cant knock me out, so take me down already!"

If this is true, Anderson ought to sack his coaches because that may be the dumbest gameplan I've ever heard.

Anderson Silva, with his multiple knockout victories and untouchable striking, is going to rely on his untested closed guard game to beat an opponent with a strong wrestling base and subpar striking? Am I the only one seeing something wrong here?

If you haven't noticed, Anderson ALWAYS drops his hands when he feels his opponent doesn't stand a chance boxing with him. He did it to Forrest Griffin and Rich Franklin. He felt the same with Chael and got punched in the mouth for it. Putting your hands at your hips while boxing isn't a gameplan; it's called being overconfident.

This whole fight has shown me a level of retardedness I didn't think possible. I cannot believe my eyes when I see posts that indicate that getting tooled for 23 minutes was part of some grand plan from Silva. He could not stop the takedown, he could not get off on the feet, he couldn't even come close to submitting Chael for the vast majority of the fight. What he did do, was finally put everything together in the last round to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat--like a true champion. I respect the hell out of both fighters for this performance....I'm really shaking my head here as to why more people aren't doing the same.

THIS. While Anderson's endurance and heart are certainly commendable attributes, the technique he displayed for this fight was atrocious. Even the triangle was arguably a gimmie: Sonnen's history indicates he doesn't know the first thing about defending a triangle and left himself open to getting placed in one for extended periods of time when he allowed Anderson to control his wrists and hips.

 

[Alaskantkdkid]

Why train wrestling when you can train Aikido instead?

Why train Muay Thai when you can train Capoeira?

 

[rarmonio8920]

1.) Anderson having poor takedown defense isn't considered as big a liability as Sonnen's poor submission defense. Anderson has been taken down, but being taken down isn't the end of a fight. Anderson can still work submissions, sweeps, or scramble to his feet. Yes, it almost cost him against Sonnen, but it's not a fight-ender like having poor submission defense.

2.) Anderson doesn't have a history of losing a lot of fights due to being repeatedly taken down. If Anderson were to get taken down in his next 3 fights and submit all of his opponents (which would be incredible), would it matter that his takedown defense isn't that great?

3.) Forgive me if I'm wrong on this one, but I think it's harder to train takedown defense than it is to train submission defense. I feel the key to good takedown defense is timing, good reactions, flexibility, and balance. In comparison, submission defense does require timing, but I think defending a submission is more technical know-how. In other words, good takedown defense requires a greater combination of skill AND physical attributes than submission defense.

 

[FIGHT FAN]

Hide yo kids, hide yo wives, hide yo husbands, they mind reading everybody up in heah!

What?

 

[Belatucadros]

this is very reasonable. what a 180 i just did in this thread. I was just venting because some people were calling a fix in another thread and even here at my house when we were watching the fight, and I don't believe that at all, but yeah, there where times where it looked like "why the hell did he do that??" (throw a lazy kick against an olympic level wrestler, hands down taking shots) but I know he wasn't planning on getting rocked and put on his ass or otherwise taking punishment on the ground. I do believe though that he wanted that sub.

Yeah. I really want to watch the fight again now that I'm sober though. But when I was watching it at the bar, a buddy and I were like "What is he waiting for? He's waiting for something...."

I'd love to know what was actually going through his head during the fight. Watching the 5th round though, after the slip and fall, Anderson was working REAL hard to try and either get back up or land a finish. Nothing like the first four rounds.

If he hadn't slipped I think he would have punished Chael on the feet a lot more, if not going for the KO finish. But much like after getting wobbled in the first round, like a good fighter does, he went with it.

I believe in his rib injury; I know some people don't. Chael even said at the presser that he didn't feel he was fighting a healthy Anderson. I am also hearing Chael made the rib injury far worse during the fight; I guess we'll see when suspensions are posted.