Double Collar Ties

WillW

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Been watching some MMA lately and seen a lot guys get blasted with punches while they have double collars.

What do you guys think are some mistakes commonly made there?
 
Honestly, just not roughing the other guy up enough. The whole advantage of that position is you can whip their head around. If you're letting them keep their head up and stand in one place, they're gonna punch the shit out of you.
 
Some fighters are learning to use their head to control their opponent's positions and balance when they are getting tied up, opening them up for counter strikes. Hendricks is a great example of a fighter who just bullys people in the clinch using his head and neck to get the most of out of the person trying to tie him up. It works great with his body type.
 
Honestly, just not roughing the other guy up enough. The whole advantage of that position is you can whip their head around. If you're letting them keep their head up and stand in one place, they're gonna punch the shit out of you.

This is my hunch, particularly since when I think double collar tie I think almost like a thai clinch, it should suck, be painful, drain the energy out of your opponent. It should also give you ridiculous amounts of control if you have a legit collar tie cranking.
 
Some fighters are learning to use their head to control their opponent's positions and balance when they are getting tied up, opening them up for counter strikes. Hendricks is a great example of a fighter who just bullys people in the clinch using his head and neck to get the most of out of the person trying to tie him up. It works great with his body type.

If a double collar tie is being used right then it should be very difficult to use your head for anything. Hendricks is usually doing work with a single collar tie or underhook.
 
Honestly, just not roughing the other guy up enough. The whole advantage of that position is you can whip their head around. If you're letting them keep their head up and stand in one place, they're gonna punch the shit out of you.
This
You need to rag doll your oppo or it's not a strong position for you. Step back and drag them to that side, when they step, knee. Step back, drag them to that side, knee again. People post on here about setting up kicks, you have to unbalance your oppo to set up knees too.


Posture is vital.
1. Sit down and pretend to punch above your head, should be easy.

2. Now try to punch behind you head, bit more tricky but still relatively easy.

3. Now try to punch 3 inches behind your head, should be nigh on impossible.


If you don't brake down THEIR posture your in situation 1
If you brake their frame but YOU have lazy posture, (have your head resting on the back of theirs, hunched over) your in situation 2
If you break down their posture and you keep yours, your in situation 3.

And that why people get punched from double coller ties
 
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You need to rag doll your oppo or it's not a strong position for you. Step back and drag them to that side, when they step, knee. Step back, drag them to that side, knee again. People post on here about setting up kicks, you have to unbalance your oppo to set up knees too.


Posture is vital.
1. Sit down and pretend to punch above your head, should be easy.

2. Now try to punch behind you head, bit more tricky but still relatively easy.

3. Now try to punch 3 inches behind your head, should be nigh on impossible.


If you don't brake down THEIR posture your in situation 1
If you brake their frame but YOU have lazy posture, (have your head resting on the back of theirs, hunched over) your in situation 2
If you break down their posture and you keep yours, your in situation 3.

And that why people get punched from double coller ties

Exactly. The classic example is Silva vs Weidman:

UFC168-ChrisWeidmanXAndersonSilva-Rd1-SloMo1a-400-sg.gif


Weidman has that frame against his neck, so Silva is failing to break posture or take away that space. He tries to throw a knee anyway and gets dropped for it.

If the other guy can look you in the eyes, you're not using that clinch right!
 
Exactly. The classic example is Silva vs Weidman:

UFC168-ChrisWeidmanXAndersonSilva-Rd1-SloMo1a-400-sg.gif


Weidman has that frame against his neck, so Silva is failing to break posture or take away that space. He tries to throw a knee anyway and gets dropped for it.

If the other guy can look you in the eyes, you're not using that clinch right!
What Silva should have done is get closer so he can put the points of his elbows into the clavicles of Weidman and use them as the pivot point to lever the head down. When the head was down, then think about knees.

His own posture is good, but he hasn't broken down Weidman's. Weidman is punching face to face
 
What Silva should have done is get closer so he can put the points of his elbows into the clavicles of Weidman and use them as the pivot point to lever the head down. When the head was down, then think about knees.

His own posture is good, but he hasn't broken down Weidman's. Weidman is punching face to face

Yea that's what I'm saying. He didn't adjust to what Weidman was doing, he just tried to attack from a bad position. He would have had to take care of that left arm if he wanted to get his elbows in position and break Weidman down.
 
Great discussion guys.

Few things I noticed was poor control with the grips and with your own head position to breakdown opp posture(and keep yourself safe). Also distance being a huge factor. You want to create distance to land your knees, elbows, etc. but you need to create it on your own terms. control and turn the opponent. rather than going for the double collar ties from way far out without any position or control.

Thought about this while reading the "Standup Techniques applicable/not applicable in MMA" .At first I scoffed at the idea. but I have been watching a lot of MMA lately and see it performed poorly, or not even gone to at all.

Feel free to post examples of it being used well and examples of it being used poorly. Good call on Weidman/Silva. Also Jones went for it a few times against DC and got hit in the process. Those are 2 popular examples, but you see that type of thing A LOT.

Another Question. It is not only poorly executed as we talked about, but why do you guys think it is so under utilized and not a priority for so many fighters. Aside from Silva, Matt Brown and some others, it isnt that popular. Do you think fighters are more concerned with a wrestling based clinch, rather than a thai style?
 
Well think about it, the double collar tie is a tough position to get to against a solid clincher. How many MT fights do you see where 1 guy actually establishes and controls that position? It's not about holding onto that position and trying to force it, it's about adapting to what the other guy is doing and flowing between different grips and attacks. Constantly disrupting his balance and breaking his posture in different ways. The guys who go into it with the idea of holding onto it tend to get in trouble. If your clinch isn't on point, you can be body locked or double legged pretty easily. Especially if you get worked against the cage, which should be the goal of anyone who's being clinched in MMA.

The guys that do go for it successfully are very good clinchers relative to the competition (Matt Brown), or are very opportunistic with it (Gustafsson, Werdum).

It's analogous to mount. Everyone knows mount is the most dominant position. There is basically nothing your opponent can do to hurt you. But to even get there, you have to be able to pass and work your way to mount from side control or half guard. Then once you're there, 90% of the time the bottom guy is just gonna explode and throw you off anyway. It takes years at the elite level to seriously develop a crushing, controlling mount just like it takes years to develop a ragdolling, airtight double collar tie.

A good example is how Mighty Mouse uses it, his clinching in general is very good. A bad example was when he fought Dodson. Every time Dodson wanted the double collar tie, he got doubled.
 
What Silva should have done is get closer so he can put the points of his elbows into the clavicles of Weidman and use them as the pivot point to lever the head down. When the head was down, then think about knees.

His own posture is good, but he hasn't broken down Weidman's. Weidman is punching face to face

Bang on.
 
Well think about it, the double collar tie is a tough position to get to against a solid clincher. How many MT fights do you see where 1 guy actually establishes and controls that position? It's not about holding onto that position and trying to force it, it's about adapting to what the other guy is doing and flowing between different grips and attacks. Constantly disrupting his balance and breaking his posture in different ways. The guys who go into it with the idea of holding onto it tend to get in trouble. If your clinch isn't on point, you can be body locked or double legged pretty easily. Especially if you get worked against the cage, which should be the goal of anyone who's being clinched in MMA.

The guys that do go for it successfully are very good clinchers relative to the competition (Matt Brown), or are very opportunistic with it (Gustafsson, Werdum).

It's analogous to mount. Everyone knows mount is the most dominant position. There is basically nothing your opponent can do to hurt you. But to even get there, you have to be able to pass and work your way to mount from side control or half guard. Then once you're there, 90% of the time the bottom guy is just gonna explode and throw you off anyway. It takes years at the elite level to seriously develop a crushing, controlling mount just like it takes years to develop a ragdolling, airtight double collar tie.

A good example is how Mighty Mouse uses it, his clinching in general is very good. A bad example was when he fought Dodson. Every time Dodson wanted the double collar tie, he got doubled.

Good post. The amount of guys in MMA who try to work the double collar tie with their back to the cage still surprises me. It's such a basic fundamental error.
 
I like to flow to/through the double collar tie if it's there. Its just a tool in your belt, what's more important is being able to clinch flow into what works against your opponent. If double collar isn't giving me the opening to create a positional advantage (ie bending him forward by the neck), I'll move on to something else.
 
NAKMUAY18, a guy, and Cyclone Mike have hit all the important points for this discussion. Bravo!
 
Been watching some MMA lately and seen a lot guys get blasted with punches while they have double collars.

What do you guys think are some mistakes commonly made there?

Not keeping them off balance and moving. A good double collar tie should be disorienting between the attacks and being jerked around.
 
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