Double Collar Ties

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by WillW, Jan 22, 2015.

  1. WillW

    WillW Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages:
    832
    Likes Received:
    6
    Been watching some MMA lately and seen a lot guys get blasted with punches while they have double collars.

    What do you guys think are some mistakes commonly made there?
     
  2. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Honestly, just not roughing the other guy up enough. The whole advantage of that position is you can whip their head around. If you're letting them keep their head up and stand in one place, they're gonna punch the shit out of you.
     
  3. Higus

    Higus Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    14,855
    Likes Received:
    13,055
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Some fighters are learning to use their head to control their opponent's positions and balance when they are getting tied up, opening them up for counter strikes. Hendricks is a great example of a fighter who just bullys people in the clinch using his head and neck to get the most of out of the person trying to tie him up. It works great with his body type.
     
  4. Chr9is

    Chr9is Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    534
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    This is my hunch, particularly since when I think double collar tie I think almost like a thai clinch, it should suck, be painful, drain the energy out of your opponent. It should also give you ridiculous amounts of control if you have a legit collar tie cranking.
     
  5. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    If a double collar tie is being used right then it should be very difficult to use your head for anything. Hendricks is usually doing work with a single collar tie or underhook.
     
  6. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    580
    This
    You need to rag doll your oppo or it's not a strong position for you. Step back and drag them to that side, when they step, knee. Step back, drag them to that side, knee again. People post on here about setting up kicks, you have to unbalance your oppo to set up knees too.


    Posture is vital.
    1. Sit down and pretend to punch above your head, should be easy.

    2. Now try to punch behind you head, bit more tricky but still relatively easy.

    3. Now try to punch 3 inches behind your head, should be nigh on impossible.


    If you don't brake down THEIR posture your in situation 1
    If you brake their frame but YOU have lazy posture, (have your head resting on the back of theirs, hunched over) your in situation 2
    If you break down their posture and you keep yours, your in situation 3.

    And that why people get punched from double coller ties
     
  7. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Exactly. The classic example is Silva vs Weidman:

    [​IMG]

    Weidman has that frame against his neck, so Silva is failing to break posture or take away that space. He tries to throw a knee anyway and gets dropped for it.

    If the other guy can look you in the eyes, you're not using that clinch right!
     
  8. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    580
    What Silva should have done is get closer so he can put the points of his elbows into the clavicles of Weidman and use them as the pivot point to lever the head down. When the head was down, then think about knees.

    His own posture is good, but he hasn't broken down Weidman's. Weidman is punching face to face
     
  9. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Yea that's what I'm saying. He didn't adjust to what Weidman was doing, he just tried to attack from a bad position. He would have had to take care of that left arm if he wanted to get his elbows in position and break Weidman down.
     
  10. WillW

    WillW Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages:
    832
    Likes Received:
    6
    Great discussion guys.

    Few things I noticed was poor control with the grips and with your own head position to breakdown opp posture(and keep yourself safe). Also distance being a huge factor. You want to create distance to land your knees, elbows, etc. but you need to create it on your own terms. control and turn the opponent. rather than going for the double collar ties from way far out without any position or control.

    Thought about this while reading the "Standup Techniques applicable/not applicable in MMA" .At first I scoffed at the idea. but I have been watching a lot of MMA lately and see it performed poorly, or not even gone to at all.

    Feel free to post examples of it being used well and examples of it being used poorly. Good call on Weidman/Silva. Also Jones went for it a few times against DC and got hit in the process. Those are 2 popular examples, but you see that type of thing A LOT.

    Another Question. It is not only poorly executed as we talked about, but why do you guys think it is so under utilized and not a priority for so many fighters. Aside from Silva, Matt Brown and some others, it isnt that popular. Do you think fighters are more concerned with a wrestling based clinch, rather than a thai style?
     
  11. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Well think about it, the double collar tie is a tough position to get to against a solid clincher. How many MT fights do you see where 1 guy actually establishes and controls that position? It's not about holding onto that position and trying to force it, it's about adapting to what the other guy is doing and flowing between different grips and attacks. Constantly disrupting his balance and breaking his posture in different ways. The guys who go into it with the idea of holding onto it tend to get in trouble. If your clinch isn't on point, you can be body locked or double legged pretty easily. Especially if you get worked against the cage, which should be the goal of anyone who's being clinched in MMA.

    The guys that do go for it successfully are very good clinchers relative to the competition (Matt Brown), or are very opportunistic with it (Gustafsson, Werdum).

    It's analogous to mount. Everyone knows mount is the most dominant position. There is basically nothing your opponent can do to hurt you. But to even get there, you have to be able to pass and work your way to mount from side control or half guard. Then once you're there, 90% of the time the bottom guy is just gonna explode and throw you off anyway. It takes years at the elite level to seriously develop a crushing, controlling mount just like it takes years to develop a ragdolling, airtight double collar tie.

    A good example is how Mighty Mouse uses it, his clinching in general is very good. A bad example was when he fought Dodson. Every time Dodson wanted the double collar tie, he got doubled.
     
  12. SCADA

    SCADA Guest

    Bang on.
     
  13. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    11,767
    Likes Received:
    3,576
    Location:
    UK
    Good post. The amount of guys in MMA who try to work the double collar tie with their back to the cage still surprises me. It's such a basic fundamental error.
     
  14. Cyclone Mike

    Cyclone Mike Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,123
    Likes Received:
    38
    I like to flow to/through the double collar tie if it's there. Its just a tool in your belt, what's more important is being able to clinch flow into what works against your opponent. If double collar isn't giving me the opening to create a positional advantage (ie bending him forward by the neck), I'll move on to something else.
     
  15. Harukaze

    Harukaze Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    4,390
    Likes Received:
    106
    Location:
    ( ͡°_> ͡°)
    NAKMUAY18, a guy, and Cyclone Mike have hit all the important points for this discussion. Bravo!
     
  16. DoctorTaco

    DoctorTaco Breadhead

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,651
    Likes Received:
    3,122
    Location:
    Portland fuckin’ Oregon.
    Not keeping them off balance and moving. A good double collar tie should be disorienting between the attacks and being jerked around.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.