Dominant Decision wins >> flash Finishes

Well, a discussion about what is or isn't a "fluke" will almost inevitably bog down into semantics about what the word fluke means. The framework I'm using, at least, is based on the somewhat oversimplified, but I think mostly accurate, assumption that given two fighters' set of skills and abilities, each has a certain % chance of winning. As I'm using the term "fluke," it refers to any fight where a guy with a lower than 50% chance of winning does so. So it could be 49%, and it'd still fit under my argument.

As I said before, I think dominance is demonstrated over a career, or at least several years. Never in a single fight. Taking a probabilistic view of fights, it really highlights how impressive something like what Anderson Silva has achieved really is. To have a greater than 50% chance of winning 16 in a row, as Silva has in the UFC alone, you need a better than 95.7% chance of winning each one (if your odds of winning were the same for every single fight). That implies you're way better than most of your opponents, and his opponents are the rest of the best in the world at his weight. But most guys, even if they're the best in their division, could never manage a streak like that. You need to be more than the best. You need to be head and shoulders above your competition.



Right. That's more or less my point. If a guy shows, over and over again, that he's going to get the finish eventually, even if he falls behind, at some point it stops looking like a fluke when he does it, and starts looking like a fluke when he doesn't.


Try to write it as pretty as you can, still inaccurate. I don't care what the fight odds say, totally irrelevant. Inside the Octagon, you have two PROFESSIONALS, if one throws a clean punch that lands and ends in a KO, it cannot be a fluke. He threw the punch with the intent to do damage.

The only thing you are saying with your percentages, is that you feel that if a Vegas underdog wins by KO, than that is a fluke.
 
Flash finishes & quick stoppages don't show the fighters true abilities

I am sure that JDS' head is much more of a mess after last nights 5 round domination than Cain's face was after the first fight flash ko.

I think that Cain beats JDS 8 out of 10 times.
 
Try to write it as pretty as you can, still inaccurate. I don't care what the fight odds say, totally irrelevant. Inside the Octagon, you have two PROFESSIONALS, if one throws a clean punch that lands and ends in a KO, it cannot be a fluke. He threw the punch with the intent to do damage.

That's not the definition of fluke I'm using. Intent has nothing to do with it.

The only thing you are saying with your percentages, is that you feel that if a Vegas underdog wins by KO, than that is a fluke.

Vegas odds have absolutely nothing to do with my argument, nor does the method of the victory. If the fighter who is less likely to win (taking the view that in every fight, both fighters have a chance, which I admit is oversimplified) wins, it's a fluke by my definition, whether by decision, submission, KO, or disqualification.
 
To expand:

I do not feel that Serra's KO of GSP was a fluke, Serra was fighting for a reason and threw a punch that he intended to hurt GSP. The punches he threw was not a fluke.

However, GSP's loss to Serra was probably a fluke, GSP would probably beat Serra 9/10.
GSP proved this in the second fight and would again and again. Partly because Serra isn't nearly as good as GSP, and partly because Serra in actuality is about two weightclasses below GSP.

This cannot be said with Cain vs JDS, they are both exceptional fighters, and you can't say that Cain would win 9/10. JDS always a pretty good chance to throw that "fluke".
 
For me at least, JDS got hurt by that right hand in the first round, and although he managed to recover enough to continue, he was never the same after taking that shot. Both fights were decided early by a good punch. Cain's lights went out, but JDS managed to take punishment for another 20 minutes. I dont see how either one proves any more (or any less) than the other.
 
That's not the definition of fluke I'm using. Intent has nothing to do with it.



Vegas odds have absolutely nothing to do with my argument, nor does the method of the victory. If the fighter who is less likely to win (taking the view that in every fight, both fighters have a chance, which I admit is oversimplified) wins, it's a fluke by my definition, whether by decision, submission, KO, or disqualification.

Exactly.

LOL, I'm done with you. You're arguing against the same point you're trying to make. Give it up, Buddy.

The fighter who is less likely to win/underdog on Vegas odds = same thing.
 
This forum is funny.

Fighter doesn't finish fights => He is not dominant

Fighter finishes fight => He is not dominant

This is the most stangest forum i have been on, it only gets more stranger as the years go by. With more closer fights, controversial matches, un-likely outcomes and starnge upsets , and weird/unconsisstant matchmaking. People here i see here always will always try rationalize and reason to make anything good or bad. Including your statment
 
This cannot be said with Cain vs JDS, they are both exceptional fighters, and you can't say that Cain would win 9/10. JDS always a pretty good chance to throw that "fluke".

Again. That's more or less my point. I'll abandon my use of the word fluke, since you really don't seem to like my definition, but we haven't seen enough of Cain and JDS to know which has the better chance of winning in a given fight. Maybe JDS lands that right hand most of the time, maybe he doesn't.

The fighter who is less likely to win/underdog on Vegas odds = same thing.

Only if you assume the collective of people betting on fights is omniscient, which is absurd.
 
Again. That's more or less my point. I'll abandon my use of the word fluke, since you really don't seem to like my definition, but we haven't seen enough of Cain and JDS to know which has the better chance of winning in a given fight. Maybe JDS lands that right hand most of the time, maybe he doesn't.



Only if you assume the collective of people betting on fights is omniscient, which is absurd.

I will entertain you one last time.

Interesting word to use omnniscient, as it is used incorrectly, as was your use of the word "fluke".

Anyways, maybe you don't understand Vegas odds, maybe you should go look at them to see how it works.

For you to say that Vegas Odds vs Public Dogs or Public Favorites are not equivalent and absurd, is absolutely mindboggling.

Either you are trying to sound smarter than you are and thereby making yourself look foolish, or you are just a troll.

Anyways, have a nice day.


fluke
2 [flook] Show IPA

noun
1.
an accidental advantage; stroke of good luck: He got the job by a fluke.

2.
an accident or chance happening.

3.
an accidentally successful stroke, as in billiards.
 
What if Cain had finished Junior in the first round?

Seriously, what if Junior didn't show the heart he did and Cain finished him in the first round after Junior defended against all the takedowns prior to the finish.

There is no such thing as flash KO's, you decide the fate of your own fight
this.
 
So had Cain finished him after dropping him in the 1st would you say there equal fighters? Two first round stoppages and no 5rounds of dominance for Cain.
 
You could also make the argument that while one punch for Junior defeated Cain, one punch from Cain also defeated Junior. Junior was doing quite well in the first half of the first round (you may have had to mute Joe Rogan to see that) by stuffing take downs and landing solid jabs. Cain was flying around flopping on the floor, but when Cain landing that big overhand right, the fight was basically over. Junior never fully recovered. So, one could argue that a single punch won both fights.
What a stupid arguement... Honestly watch both fights again and read what you have just wrote...

OP couldnt agree more buddy.
 
I think that's pretty obvious though. I don't see how anybody would argue that lol

I don't think it's obvious at all. Two fighters fought twice. They are 1-1. One won a dominant UD, the other by KO. Both are big ways to win and make a statement. The only thing obvious about which is a better fighter based on those two fights alone is that they'll need a third fight to establish which is greater.
 
After tonight would anyone argue that a flash finish tells us way less about who is the better fighter, then a dominant decision does? After watching a dominant decision win no one really questions who would win the next time. If it is repeatable?

JDS is one of the greatest strikers in the HW division and while his first finish was not at all lucky, Cain proved how hard it is for him to repeat that performance and thus win subsequant fights. a dominant decision never leaves that question.

However had Cain finished JDS after a prolonged beating then Dominant Finish >>> Dominant Decision >>> Flash Finish.

Does anyone disagree and think flash ko's are a better win in terms of telling us who the better fighter is?

(not looking for what you find more exciting fwiw)

Both fights were basically decided by one punch.

JDS could have dominated Cain for 25 minutes in the first fight if the ref let him.

You have no point.
 
fluke
2 [flook] Show IPA

noun
1.
an accidental advantage; stroke of good luck: He got the job by a fluke.

2.
an accident or chance happening.

3.
an accidentally successful stroke, as in billiards.

Not that dictionaries are the be-all-end-all for word definitions, but the very first definition Google brings up is:

fluke
/flo͞ok/
Noun
Unlikely chance occurrence, esp. a surprising piece of luck: "their triumph was no fluke".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fluke gives us:

fluke 3 (flk)
n.
1. A stroke of good luck.

from The American Heritage
 
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If you don't know this already, you should probably watch another sport.
 
This forum is funny.

Fighter doesn't finish fights => He is not dominant

Fighter finishes fight => He is not dominant

That's not at all what people are saying.
They are saying that a full 5 round fight gives a more accurate view of who is the better figther than a flash knockout.

The first fight showed us that JDS has knock-out power (which we already knew).

The second fight showed us that:
Cain has better stand-up when JDS is worried about take-downs
Cain can take down JDS over and over again once JDS gets a little tired
Cain has way better cardio
JDS doesn't have much of a ground game

You can't say that JDS would win most of the times based on the first fight.
You can definitely say that Cain would win most of he times based on the second fight.

If they fought 10 times I would have it something like:

5 times Cain via decision
3 times Cain via tko/ko
2 times JDS via tko/ko

One of those JDS ko's just happend to occur the first time they fought.
 
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