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Dominant champs are strong evidence of a shallow talent pool.

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by PlasticFishBowl, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. PlasticFishBowl Blue Belt

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    This isn’t a troll thread, so I’m going to actually attempt to explain and justify what I’m saying and make it clear it’s not a “lul UFC sucks” thread.

    Imagine competitive mile running. You would never see a case where the best mile runner in the world is 50 seconds better than the second best. It will always be close. Why? Because there is a physical limit to how fast you can run, and running is a sport that tons of people train for, and so many people will push that physical limit. Thus, you will have lots of people grouped closely together.

    Now look at the UFC:

    - Shev and Nunes rule their 3 divisions with iron fists. No one can even challenge either of them.

    - Khabib ruled 155 totally. He dropped like 1 round ever and, by the end, finished everyone in dominant fashion.

    - Usman dominates 170 totally. He had a bit of a war with Colby but other than that, his 5 title fights have all been dominant and he lost no rounds.

    Izzy totally rules 185. His 4 title fights have all been easy wins (I suppose the toughest was the staring match with Yoel) and no one can really challenge him.

    145 is a bit different since the champ and Max are both good. HW and BW have new champs (Yan , not Aljo I mean) that I suspect will be dominant but we do have to see first to be sure.

    Here’s the kicker though. These champs weren’t all that dominant on their way up. Usman made his way to the top with boring decisions. Khabib grinder out decisions too and even had a seeming loss vs. Tibau. Izzy had struggles and went through a war with Gastelum on the way up.

    But then these guys get the belt and they are untouchable and dominant. Why? Because the talent level is so low that a champ has resources (tons of personalized trainers/coaches and training partners) that allow them to elevate themselves so far from the field. A guy like Usman gets taught a jab and becomes a KO artist. A guy like Francis gets taught a basic sprawl and dominates the “GOAT”. Khabib develops rudimentary kickboxing defense and loses like 1 round in 5 years. When your #1 guys destroy your #2 guys so badly, it means your sport lacks top talent.
     
  2. Mr.Maelstrom Random Flex Belt

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    Maybe in sports where everyone competes weekly like races, ball sports etc.

    But in fighting, each participant has 3-4 chances a year at the most to compete.
    So yeah, you see the best of the best hang onto their spot for years at a time.

    If shevchenko or khabib did MMA 52 Saturdays a year, they'd surely rack up some losses and you'd get much more parity.

    Just a by product of the inherent differences between sports imo.
     
  3. cshireman4 Purple Belt

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    Ah yes, the ole "lack of adequate competition" ruse. Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt, Serena Williams, Roy Jones Jr, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, GSP, Anderson Silva, Fedor, Tiger Woods, Messi, Ronaldo, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Tom Brady, Roger Federer, Simone Blies...all just products of good timing, right?

    And your "kicker" actually disproves your entire post. If these champs weren't dominant on their way up, then someone currently having ups and downs can become a future champ, which is indicative of sufficient competition.
     
  4. Raymundo Alvarado Guevara Purple Belt

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    Thats seems kindly true, but at the end of the day you are one punch away of a win
     
  5. EndlessCritic Steel Belt

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    Jan Blachowicz isn't a dominant champion, and 205 is incredibly shallow.

    Kamaru Usman is a dominant champion, and 170 is extremely deep.
     
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  6. PlasticFishBowl Blue Belt

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    You actually bring up a great point by mentioning tennis. It’s in probably a worse state than MMA with shallow talent pools and a total lack of parity. And tennis fans have been decrying this for a decade, ever since the same 3 men began winning 100% of major tournaments, even when all 3 were well past their primes.
     
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  7. jimmy dakine Green Belt

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    Its complicated....its a complicated sport.
     
  8. Young Calf Kick Green Belt

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    Or maybe we can just accept that outliers exist and come along every once in a while.

    Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are (maybe were, since they’re getting old) several levels above everyone else in football/soccer. Does the rest of the world then suck even though literally billions of people play the game?
     
  9. Hellowhosthat Steel Belt

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    You brought up running, a sport in which Usain Bolt was legitimately much faster than all his competitors in a sport that anyone can do.
     
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  10. GrantB13 Red Belt

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    No not all the time. Going back to your example of running, yeah, it's running. There's a limit. MMA has a huge factor of strategy, awareness, courage, etc. Runners run. There's no strategy, there's no techniques like martial arts, it's just running and that's why you won't see huge gaps. So by default what you're saying is that Dustin, Gaethje, Conor, Chandler, Oliveira, and all them just suck and Khabib was the only good fighter this generation.

    WMMA is the only one that over the long haul has just been terrible with talent because when you watch Nunes and Schevchenko you don't feel like you're watching "WMMA" (at least for me). That's the difference.

    So no, is not just purely because everyone else sucks and only the champs got lucky and are the decent ones.
     
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  11. HumanSadness Christian Pacifist

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    Running is for cowards.
     
  12. Hellowhosthat Steel Belt

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    Not if you're chasing someone.
     
  13. Volador Black Belt

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    Poor argument for the reasons listed by other posters. Messi and Cristiano were the best by far in their positions for about 10 years. Federer owned tennis for about a decade (lol at tennis being shallow), Jordan, Kobe and Lebron all had their “eras”. Mayweather beat Pacquiao, Canelo and 48 other guys and never lost. None of those sports have shallow talent pools.

    Most sports are designed to find out who the best competitor is, so when you find it and he’s an incredible exception, that shouldn’t be too surprising.

    That doesn’t mean some divisions aren’t shallow, but the dominance of the champion by itself is not indicative of that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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  14. HumanSadness Christian Pacifist

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    <BC1>
     
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  15. The Demon Sword Orange Belt

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    Khabib was not a dominant champ as he hadn’t cleaned his top 10 like Izzy or Usman have(practically beat everyone)
    Khabib still hadn’t fought
    1. Tony
    2. Olivera
    3. Chandler
    4. Hooker
    5. Islam
    6. dariush
    He still had fun fights left. It’s not a sign of a weak talent pool
     
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  16. Krimzon Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    when are dominant champs an indication of a once in a lifetime athlete? Is it possible?
     
  17. HHJ Fuckin' SHOOTOUT

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    Classic Self hatred thread
     
  18. TempleoftheDog Black Belt

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    Your analogy about a mile runner not winning by 50 seconds is rubbish. Because though there might only be a few seconds between first and second. Some of these track athletes can win every event for years in a row. Which is no different than a champ holding the title for years.

    Ridiculous take.
     
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  19. RockyLockridge Silver Belt

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    but you have to look at competition, and really it depends on what you mean by "shallow"

    Isreal for example in his title run has beaten undefeated fighters, and multiple fighters younger than him with better grappling credentials. Costa won every fight he had at mw, Whitaker was still undeafeted at mw, when he fought izzy. vettori is 11-3 in the ufc with 2 of his losses coming from izzy. these contenders have solid records.

    I dont see why just because there is a gap between the champ and the contenders means the talent pool is shallow. Shallow to me means that there isn't even high level contenders to fight, these guys are there but the champ is a talent level above them.
     
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  20. Dionysian Gold Belt

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    Did you start watching on your join date? Literally only Tony was at all near a title shot from all the guys on your list when Khabib retired (October 2020).
     
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