Dollar Per Dollar, Who is Rebney Kidding?

TS seems to have missed the most important paragraph:

"There is no guaranteed pay-per-view in the UFC offer to Eddie Alvarez," he says emphatically. "We as Bellator don't have to match projections. We don't have to match what could conceptually happen. We have to match guaranteed dollars and what the UFC contractually guaranteed would occur. That is what we are held to."

you don't have to like it, but you should at least attempt to understand it.


very interesting - and it actually impedes UFC from using ppv bonuses as leverage.

nonetheless, i would assume that they could easily quantify the the proposed value of the ppv could be based on averages and assumptions.
 
While that all could be very true, the PPV% breakdown given was an example and without any quantifiable # with some facts behind it we also have no way of knowing how much he would pull in off of a PPV. Also a #1 contender fight could just as likely get a main event slot as a title fight with as many events as the UFC is putting on now, which means more chances to headline. Rebney might be right in the sense that he only has to match the guaranteed money, butif the UFC shows the judge some documented reports of the buy rates of recent PPV's(somewhere between the last 6-12 to get an average) and the judge agrees believes that it is concrete enough to tell whether Bellator has offered enough to financially compensate for that revenue being that they have never held a PPV, so there's would likely do nowhere near the same numbers.

No matter how you look at it, the UFC can't lose on this one, they don't need Eddie, and no matter how right Bellator may be as it concerns the stipulations of the contract, this situation along with the handful of others that Bellator has went through with some of it's fighters might have weakened their ability to sign future prospects that have any sort of bargaining power. The worst that happens to the UFC in this situation is that they miss out on a top 10 fighter in what is arguably their most stacked division, they essentially nothing to lose on this one, and everything to gain.

Very good points and nicely put.
 
Bellator is really hurting itself with this behavior. WHy would you bother signing with them? Better take your chances fighting on the indies and get a contract that way.This will scare away all but the lowest talent.
 
In my mind Rebney saying Bellator matched the UFC's offer is like having a $50 piece of steak with the UFC vs. 10 Big Macs from Bellator. Sure they both work out to around $50 but who wants to eat 10 Big Macs when you can have a fat juicy bone in ribeye at the same table as the rest of the UFC Superstars :)

This part is the key. Match the contract all you want money-wise...you're still not the UFC. Sorry.
 
TS seems to have missed the most important paragraph:

"There is no guaranteed pay-per-view in the UFC offer to Eddie Alvarez," he says emphatically. "We as Bellator don't have to match projections. We don't have to match what could conceptually happen. We have to match guaranteed dollars and what the UFC contractually guaranteed would occur. That is what we are held to."

you don't have to like it, but you should at least attempt to understand it.

Yes. And you don't hear sponsors, PPV buys, etc being "matched" in these kinds of discussions. It's not how it works, you can't offer hypotheticals. Even if Eddie was guaranteed to get a PPV cut from the UFC, Bellator wouldn't have to add that in there when saying what sum they matched. It's a lump sum vs another.
 
Bellator Wins this in Court imo.

It is beyond IMPOSSIBLE from anyone to estimate Alvarez's potential future income. He could become the worlds biggest PPV star, or he could get koed in a fuel card, and end up on the undercard the rest of his career. I imagine Bellator's contract states the match GUARANTEED money.
 
Sounds like Bellator is offering a big, smelly backdoor bonus.
 
In response to a number of posters saying that this incident would scare away potential talents from signing with Bellator:

What you're saying seems to make sense, theoretically, but if you think about it a little bit more and look at what's actually happening, the reality is the total opposite.

Look at what's happening with Alvarez:

Because of this situation where the UFC and Bellator are fighting for him, his stock is dramatically raised to the point where he is being offered and counter offered with MORE GUARANTEED MONEY than the UFC LW champ, Benson Henderson!

So, no... I think future talents would LOVE to get into this same situation that Alvarez is in, where they could get more money by having two orgs offering and counter offering more money to get them to sign.
 
In response to a number of posters saying that this incident would scare away potential talents from signing with Bellator:

What you're saying seems to make sense, theoretically, but if you think about it a little bit more and look at what's actually happening, the reality is the total opposite.

Look at what's happening with Alvarez:

Because of this situation where the UFC and Bellator are fighting for him, his stock is dramatically raised to the point where he is being offered and counter offered with MORE GUARANTEED MONEY than the UFC LW champ, Benson Henderson!

So, no... I think future talents would LOVE to get into this same situation that Alvarez is in, where they could get more money by having two orgs offering and counter offering more money to get them to sign.

You're leaving out a very important fact. Despite all these potential benefits, Alvarez is NOT fighting right now and he wont be for a while. What's the point of getting offered more money if you can't fight? It's pretty clear Alvarez wants out of Bellator to get in the UFC but Bellator wont let him. Yes, he "could" fight at 70k/70k but for now, he's sitting home for an astounding 0k/0k.

That's what fighter will be scared about. Being forced to sit out on contractual disputes... Let's say Ben Henderson fights 3 times in 2013: 39k/39k X 3 compared to Alvarez 0k/0k for 2013. Tell me now, who's getting paid the most?
 
You're leaving out a very important fact. Despite all these potential benefits, Alvarez is NOT fighting right now and he wont be for a while. What's the point of getting offered more money if you can't fight? It's pretty clear Alvarez wants out of Bellator to get in the UFC but Bellator wont let him. Yes, he "could" fight at 70k/70k but for now, he's sitting home for an astounding 0k/0k.

That's what fighter will be scared about. Being forced to sit out on contractual disputes... Let's say Ben Henderson fights 3 times in 2013: 39k/39k X 3 compared to Alvarez 0k/0k for 2013. Tell me now, who's getting paid the most?

Wrong. Bellator matched the UFC's contract. Eddie is not forced to do anything. If he wants to not earn money, that's his own choice.

Bellator has a $250K signing bonus and an escalating 70k/70k minimum contract waiting for him. Using your example of Bendo having 3 fights and winning them all, Bendo earns $234k in guaranteed money in 2013. If Eddie fights 3 times as well, he has $670k guaranteed money....nearly TRIPLE Bendo's guaranteed earnings.

Ask any up and comer, who is probably struggling to make ends meet right now about turning down $670K for 1 years of work.....
 
You're leaving out a very important fact. Despite all these potential benefits, Alvarez is NOT fighting right now and he wont be for a while. What's the point of getting offered more money if you can't fight? It's pretty clear Alvarez wants out of Bellator to get in the UFC but Bellator wont let him. Yes, he "could" fight at 70k/70k but for now, he's sitting home for an astounding 0k/0k.

This is a good question and it made me realized something:

Alvarez can accept the 70k/70k counter offer and fight now, but he isn't, which leads me to believe that it is very possible that his legal team is advising him to do this to squeeze out more cash from the offer and counter offer.


That's what fighter will be scared about. Being forced to sit out on contractual disputes... Let's say Ben Henderson fights 3 times in 2013: 39k/39k X 3 compared to Alvarez 0k/0k for 2013. Tell me now, who's getting paid the most?

Theoretically, Henderson can fight 3 times in 2013. However, going by the actual number of fights by the previous LW champ, Edgar, who had back-to-back-to back rematches and still fought no more than 2 times a year, I would say that most likely, Henderson will fight no more than 2 times a year.

As a matter of fact, no current UFC Champ other than Jones have fought 3 times a year.
 
Wrong. Bellator matched the UFC's contract. Eddie is not forced to do anything. If he wants to not earn money, that's his own choice.

Bellator has a $250K signing bonus and an escalating 70k/70k minimum contract waiting for him. Using your example of Bendo having 3 fights and winning them all, Bendo earns $234k in guaranteed money in 2013. If Eddie fights 3 times as well, he has $670k guaranteed money....nearly TRIPLE Bendo's guaranteed earnings.

Ask any up and comer, who is probably struggling to make ends meet right now about turning down $670K for 1 years of work.....

Excellent post, man!
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Bellator Wins this in Court imo.

It is beyond IMPOSSIBLE from anyone to estimate Alvarez's potential future income. He could become the worlds biggest PPV star, or he could get koed in a fuel card, and end up on the undercard the rest of his career. I imagine Bellator's contract states the match GUARANTEED money.

Yep, and from what I have read, the UFC contract allows them to renegotiate a fighter's pay if he loses. Therefore, even if Alvarez loses a close decision, they can still lower his pays, which means he has little guaranteed money under the UFC contract.
 
If they can guarantee him a certain percentage of PPV buys then he's already guaranteed to make more money in the UFC than Bellator. If Alvarez is getting one dollar per PPV buy (just for the sake of argument of course), he's making more than Bellator which cannot guarantee him PPV pay of any kind.


In a ways, it's somewhat good that this will head to court since we'll be able to get a definitive by law answer as to what constitutes a matching contract.

He isn't guaranteed to fight on ppv events.... He could sign the contract and spend the whole contract fighting on FX, Fuel and Fox and not see a dime of that ppv bonus money.

That is the point here and why Bellator will win this in court. There is no way they can be held liable to match hypothetical figures and events that may not ever happen....
 
Also makes you wonder if/how they would take sponsorship into account. I mean you could easily argue the fact that UFC has 3 people with Nike sponsorships (2 worldwide, not sure about JDS) and no other org has that. Which in turn proves a point that fighting in the UFC offers a higher percentage chance to get a lucrative sponsorship deal, which equals more money.

Its impossible to take it into account. Because Eddie getting Nike sponsorship would be dependent on him both winning the lightweight title and being a popular enough champion for Nike to want to sponsor. A very very tall order. Bellator won't (nor should they) take small possibilities into account.

Also his ppv revenue would be entirely based on him being successful enough in the UFC. How can anyone predict that? He could be the next champ. He could also start losing with the step up in competition. Its hard to say.
 
very interesting - and it actually impedes UFC from using ppv bonuses as leverage.

nonetheless, i would assume that they could easily quantify the the proposed value of the ppv could be based on averages and assumptions.

Based on what? Has the UFC even guaranteed Eddie one main slot on a ppv?
 
You're leaving out a very important fact. Despite all these potential benefits, Alvarez is NOT fighting right now and he wont be for a while. What's the point of getting offered more money if you can't fight? It's pretty clear Alvarez wants out of Bellator to get in the UFC but Bellator wont let him. Yes, he "could" fight at 70k/70k but for now, he's sitting home for an astounding 0k/0k.

That's what fighter will be scared about. Being forced to sit out on contractual disputes... Let's say Ben Henderson fights 3 times in 2013: 39k/39k X 3 compared to Alvarez 0k/0k for 2013. Tell me now, who's getting paid the most?

Why would any prospect be scared about being given the option to fight right now and make more than the UFC champ...or wait out a year and fight in the UFC? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal that is hedged towards pushing them to stay with Bellator. Which of course it should be, since its a Bellator contract.
 
I'm guessing this will come down to the exact wording of the contract, does it specifically state that Bellator only have to equal any garenteed deal from the UFC or it use more generalised language thats open to interpretation allowing Alvarez to argue greater potential earning should be taken into account.

Alexandergreat3 said:
Yep, and from what I have read, the UFC contract allows them to renegotiate a fighter's pay if he loses. Therefore, even if Alvarez loses a close decision, they can still lower his pays, which means he has little guaranteed money under the UFC contract.

This to me opens another interesting debate, are the UFC themselves going to be keen to see the details of there contracts picked over by Bellators lawylers infront of a judge? as you say the obvious counter they'll come up with is that although the Bellator contract offers less potential to higher earnings its also likely offers much in the way of garenteed money.Beyond that though I'm guessing Bellator might well use such a case as a chance to question the legality of the UFC's contracts in areas such as this.

For all the UFC's strong arm tactics I think its noteble that we've never actually seen things get as far as a court case, even with Randy the Lesnar deal was made that earn him a ton of money.
 
Seems kind of silly, he will probably lose his debut in the ufc
 
Wrong. Bellator matched the UFC's contract. Eddie is not forced to do anything. If he wants to not earn money, that's his own choice.

Bellator has a $250K signing bonus and an escalating 70k/70k minimum contract waiting for him. Using your example of Bendo having 3 fights and winning them all, Bendo earns $234k in guaranteed money in 2013. If Eddie fights 3 times as well, he has $670k guaranteed money....nearly TRIPLE Bendo's guaranteed earnings.

Ask any up and comer, who is probably struggling to make ends meet right now about turning down $670K for 1 years of work.....

You can not conceptually match the UFC PPV portion of the contract when Bellator does not do PPV.

It would be like an organisation with no belt or champion, just fights, claiming they matched the UFC offer for a championship fight because they are considering creating belts.

It is very clear Bellator did NOT match the UFC contract and are dragging it out to get Eddie to give in so his family doesn't starve. Once this reaches court I see no way Bellator wins.
 
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