Does Sport BJJ really not translate to the streets?

they can submit and sweep guys with base and knowlage yet they can't sweep or submit your average person... .great logic
 
dude this thread is racist...fuck up with the 'black guy comment....BJJ Foreever and you are racist..
 
Having the know how to maintain positional control over another person is never a bad thing in a street fight. Knowing countless submissions isn't either. It's like saying wrestling doesn't translate to the street because they don't have to worry about strikes. Both give you a huge upper hand against the average joe.
 
My instructors have always told me to never go to the ground in a street fight intentionally. With that being said, two of my friends, both of whom train only sport jiu jitsu (no muay thai, boxing, etc.) were attacked in separate incidents before on the street and their jits saved them. In the one incident my friend was swung on by a guy with some type of steel pole. He tried to back up, caught a little on the arm, then immediately lowered his level, shot a double, went easily to mount, and cross collar choked the guy with his jacket. His girlfriend had called the police and they arrived a few minutes later.

I train MT but think I would have a strong chance, assuming no weapons, to beat the average guy on the street who was my size or a little larger simply by using good foot work, shooting or clinching for a take down, and then moving to an advantageous position, all of which is taught is sport jiu jitsu.
 
cooltoon999 said:
I have a few friends who are into the whole gracie combatives thing/self defense thing (train at a real gym) and they assure me that sport jiujitsu will not translate to the street well because you don't have to worry about punches. While their is some truth to that statement, I don't think you should totally rule out it out.

I mean, if you were drunk and this black guy was hittin on your girl, and you know your babe's into the interacial thing, and you tried to attack him, but oh shit it's Jacare pre-mma, i'm pretty sure he'd fuck you up. But then theres also the argument that because he's so athletic he'd have the upper hand.

What do you think?
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The Jacare example isn't even needed. Of course sport BJJ translates. The assumption that sport BJJ involved everyone butt scooting and hanging out in half guard all day is ridiculous. I disagree with your friends.

Tons of sport players can dump you on your head, get on top and put you to sleep. Plenty sport guys if knocked/taken down can sweep or or stand back up and run away or continue to fight. I guarantee you Cobrinha would fuck someone up in a street fight.

People that train at predominately sportive gyms can and often do practice strikes while they grapple. Even if they didn't, it's instinctive. If I have you mounted, any punching, biting, gouging you try to do, I can do right back.

Same for the bottom. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to attempt to defend punches when trapped underneath someone. It doesn't mean you won't get beat up, but still...

All this said, I think it is good to have a solid foundation is what BJJ was meant to do, which was to allow you to fight and feel safe and confident. Also to be able to protect your friends and loved ones.

But, and here is where some people disagree. I am not going to keep spending time learning self defense. I did that for 10 years. I am already confident and able to handle myself. I will not forget the principles and foundations of what everyone from Kano to the Gracies did, but I want to have FUN. I am no longer training to stay safe. My reason for training is to do something I enjoy.

I guess my point is, if you train to beat black belts in a sport BJJ school, before too long you're probably going to be able to fuck up the average bear, EVEN if you don't train many strikes.
 
CyberFreq said:
Sport JJ does not translate as well as those self-defense courses.

Example: Pull guard on some guy on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then, do the self-defense approach, parry/block a punch, clinch, trip.

In first scenario, you sir are out cold. In the second scenario, a winner is you.
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See this is what I don't get. Obviously I agree with your examples, but why is it assumed that the Sport JJ fighter is gonna pull guard? Why can he not shoot a takedown, clinch and trip, slam, footsweep, or do hip Judo throw?

Some of these responses seem to be answering "Can sport JJ players that only pull guard translate their skills to the streets?"
 
MyBodyHurts said:
My instructors have always told me to never go to the ground in a street fight intentionally. With that being said, two of my friends, both of whom train only sport jiu jitsu (no muay thai, boxing, etc.) were attacked in separate incidents before on the street and their jits saved them. In the one incident my friend was swung on by a guy with some type of steel pole. He tried to back up, caught a little on the arm, then immediately lowered his level, shot a double, went easily to mount, and cross collar choked the guy with his jacket. His girlfriend had called the police and they arrived a few minutes later.

I train MT but think I would have a strong chance, assuming no weapons, to beat the average guy on the street who was my size or a little larger simply by using good foot work, shooting or clinching for a take down, and then moving to an advantageous position, all of which is taught is sport jiu jitsu.
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That's a really cool story man. That's pretty impressive.

As far as your instructors comments... I did a workshop with Dave Camarillo on Friday, and he was saying something I have always believed. This is a concept he and John Danaher are pushing hard. It is okay to go to the ground as long as it's your decision and it's done on your terms in a fashion you desire. He was also saying what most of us know, and that's that wrestling is the best way to control where the fight takes place, and that if you have weak wrestling it makes your JJ weaker.

No he is not ragging on BJJ purists. Remember, these are guys (Camarillo and Danaher) that train the most elite level MMA fighters in the world. If Dave Camarillo wants to give me advice on how to fight, I'm gonna listen.

I realize this isn't really related to the thread, but I think there's a thread of commonality.
 
i love how all the people who don't actually train in a sport setting assume all you actually do is flop to the floor on your ass and scoot around in circles. in my school (gracie barra) we are constantly reminded that the top is where you want to be. having a great guard is important but if your in guard your working against your opponent and gravity yes you should be trying to submit but you also should never stop trying to sweep... as top position is where you want to be.

yes that philosophy is just some on my instructors opinions and not everyone follows their logic but even when the guard pullers do pull guard they immediately look for the sweep and we drill that consistently.

I'm not proud of what happened but I think it has bearing on the current thread......

On the fourth of july a group of my co-workers got together for drinks and some illegal fireworks. the night was great and man i never thought blowing up about 1.5k dollars could be so much fun.. have you ever seen one of the mortar things blow up under water?? and while your drunk... it was great.

Well end of the night (about 2am) my friends back yard was covered in beer bottles and cardboard with a bunch of smoking holes in his grass. a group of us started cleaning up because it was the right thing to do and everyone pitched in but one guy. the one guy being a 230 pound gym rat "black dude" like you mentioned. the guy eats 6 pills (animal explode or something?) and a protein shake for his mid morning snack well my wife tried to hand him a garbage bag and he smarted off to her.

well of course i was busy cleaning but overheard it all so of course i'm not letting anyone talk to my wife without saying something.. i at the time was also cutting weight for a tournament and was about 165.

well he was drunk.. i was drunk and he of course took the situation way out of hand and sucker punched me in the side of the head over my left ear. i might train at a sport oriented school but you know what it taught me? when getting punched by a fucking half animal i have a sweet power double...

i took him down.. he reversed it and got me in a super tight headlock which aggravated my cauliflower ear.. i escaped it and pushed off his hips and took him down a second time. i ended up in side control and jumped from KOB back to side control until he gassed...

im a white belt and sport BJJ saved me against a 230 lb black dude /thread
 
Cash Bill 52 said:
My guess is, is that if you are a high level competitor, you'll be oKay on 'THE STREETZ!"

If you are a competitive boxer you would suck on the streetz because you would have no one to tape your hands or separate you in the clinch. Competitive wrestlers suck as well on the Streetz. Nobody ever walks around with a singlet on. Take away a MT guy's big gloves and he got nothing...:confused:

Gracie Combatives is the only proven method for le street...:icon_neut

Also, TS is an obvious race baiter...Not cool, bro... :-/
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Race baiting is one of my secret joys! You usually gotta dig for years before you find out where a guy stands. I like dudes like the TS who give you signs immediately. :D

Anyhow, I will always say the self defense argument is stupid. You get into an altercation, flip a coin. Maybe you win, maybe you survive, maybe you get your ass beat, maybe you get shanked. It's a roll of the die and victory (whatever that means) has less to do with your physical training and more to do with being in the right place at the right time.

Remember Gracie combatives was started by Gracies who couldn't find a niche for themselves because they were losing in compeition.

Oh, and BTW normal rolling in any jiu jitsu club prepares you more for self defense than a lot of people think. After a while, rolling in a big group you get a sense of where other bodies are and when they are about to fall on top of you. That's something that people unfamiliar with grappling can usually do. Also just the ability to hold someone in mount, or side control works amazing. People always say you should be going for the finish, but just securing a dominant position until help arrives is useful too.
 
dazed863 said:
i love how all the people who don't actually train in a sport setting assume all you actually do is flop to the floor on your ass and scoot around in circles. in my school (gracie barra) we are constantly reminded that the top is where you want to be. having a great guard is important but if your in guard your working against your opponent and gravity yes you should be trying to submit but you also should never stop trying to sweep... as top position is where you want to be.

yes that philosophy is just some on my instructors opinions and not everyone follows their logic but even when the guard pullers do pull guard they immediately look for the sweep and we drill that consistently.

I'm not proud of what happened but I think it has bearing on the current thread......

On the fourth of july a group of my co-workers got together for drinks and some illegal fireworks. the night was great and man i never thought blowing up about 1.5k dollars could be so much fun.. have you ever seen one of the mortar things blow up under water?? and while your drunk... it was great.

Well end of the night (about 2am) my friends back yard was covered in beer bottles and cardboard with a bunch of smoking holes in his grass. a group of us started cleaning up because it was the right thing to do and everyone pitched in but one guy. the one guy being a 230 pound gym rat "black dude" like you mentioned. the guy eats 6 pills (animal explode or something?) and a protein shake for his mid morning snack well my wife tried to hand him a garbage bag and he smarted off to her.

well of course i was busy cleaning but overheard it all so of course i'm not letting anyone talk to my wife without saying something.. i at the time was also cutting weight for a tournament and was about 165.

well he was drunk.. i was drunk and he of course took the situation way out of hand and sucker punched me in the side of the head over my left ear. i might train at a sport oriented school but you know what it taught me? when getting punched by a fucking half animal i have a sweet power double...

i took him down.. he reversed it and got me in a super tight headlock which aggravated my cauliflower ear.. i escaped it and pushed off his hips and took him down a second time. i ended up in side control and jumped from KOB back to side control until he gassed...

im a white belt and sport BJJ saved me against a 230 lb black dude /thread
Click to expand...

Buy this man a beer. Like I said earlier, this idea that sport BJJ players butt flop at every chance is absurd.

Then it gets worse when you DO take someone down and people go, "Oh that wasn't BJJ though it was Judo/Wrestling." Gimme a break. BJJ is NOT about always or even most frequently trying to win a fight off your back.

Congrats on protecting yourself and your wife. Sorry you had to, but glad everyone remained safe.
 
CyberFreq said:
Sport JJ does not translate as well as those self-defense courses.

Example: Pull guard on some guy on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then, do the self-defense approach, parry/block a punch, clinch, trip.

In first scenario, you sir are out cold. In the second scenario, a winner is you.
Click to expand...

I would have zero problem pulling guard on hardwood or concrete. The idea is to drag him down with you, not try to jump. So, I would get under-hooks, and pull guard. Not that I'm a guard-pulling person. If you get hurt pulling guard, you either suck at falling or jump too high for no reason. Sleeve/jacket pull, sit back, guard. How hard is that?
 
The_observer86 said:
I would have zero problem pulling guard on hardwood or concrete. The idea is to drag him down with you, not try to jump. So, I would get under-hooks, and pull guard. Not that I'm a guard-pulling person. If you get hurt pulling guard, you either suck at falling or jump too high for no reason. Sleeve/jacket pull, sit back, guard. How hard is that?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you KO yourself pulling guard, even on cement, you suck at pulling guard.
 
thedoc56 said:
nope, you learn both. its two seperate things
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the online combative and the GJJ aspect is more about self defense and the modern sport aspects are old topics which have been done time and time again.

The bottom line is that you cannot generalise what is my JJ like and I cannot generalise what is your JJ training like.

You want to train at Torrance or train online with your mats doing the combatives together. so be it! good luck.

You just do not need to take the piss of others that actually train for competition BJJ as well.
 
The_observer86 said:
I would have zero problem pulling guard on hardwood or concrete. The idea is to drag him down with you, not try to jump. So, I would get under-hooks, and pull guard. Not that I'm a guard-pulling person. If you get hurt pulling guard, you either suck at falling or jump too high for no reason. Sleeve/jacket pull, sit back, guard. How hard is that?
Click to expand...

pulling guard on a street fight might not be a good idea.
 
Drew Foster said:
See this is what I don't get. Obviously I agree with your examples, but why is it assumed that the Sport JJ fighter is gonna pull guard? Why can he not shoot a takedown, clinch and trip, slam, footsweep, or do hip Judo throw?

Some of these responses seem to be answering "Can sport JJ players that only pull guard translate their skills to the streets?"
Click to expand...

well, people watched BJJ competition and just assume that BJJ fighters just only know how to pull guard.
 
I'm a guard puller until I actually get any skills that will allow me to contest the takedown in competition. I'm also not very big or strong.

All experience in sparring standing against real n00bs suggests that my weak-ass takedowns are vastly superior to untrained peoples' takedowns, whenether it is a shot or from the clinch.

Brb. I now have a hypothesis, and I'm going out to pick a fight in the name of SCIENCE!
 
Crane kick>Gracie Combatives. If done right, no can defense.
 
lechien said:
the online combative and the GJJ aspect is more about self defense and the modern sport aspects are old topics which have been done time and time again.

The bottom line is that you cannot generalise what is my JJ like and I cannot generalise what is your JJ training like.

You want to train at Torrance or train online with your mats doing the combatives together. so be it! good luck.

You just do not need to take the piss of others that actually train for competition BJJ as well.
Click to expand...

LOL huh. if ur not training w punches part of the time, then my 'generalization' is correct
 
thedoc56 said:
LOL huh. if ur not training w punches part of the time, then my 'generalization' is correct
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defense vs strikes is ingrained in proper posture breaking/guard playing
 
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