Does Rafa possess superhuman strength?

[mataleaos]

True for Panza, but Dementes face was pretty red. Demente rolled facing the camera, on top, and was filmed with Gui too (also facing camera on top) , I think it's probably knew. Also Rafa has a no gi roll with Jake Shields and one with Galvao where he comes out on top.

more than just those too. There were a lot on his old site getting ready for adcc especially. Multiple rolls with galvao, Keenan, jt, vitor oliveira, bill cooper, Sean Roberts.

Of course he chose the rolls where he looked best but he never looked bad in ones he posted.

 

[mataleaos]

Galvao was a featherweight in the past. Rafa could just take the same steroids and he is a lot more skilled than Galvao who won the absolute.

Assuming Rafa could get to the same size as Galvao there's also a huge style fifference. Rafa is very open about the fact that he doesn't like training wrestling. Galvao is the opposite. He won his adcc absolute title with a lot of wrestling and he's defended his superfight title since then with a lot of wrestling. Besides baiting single legs to attack front chokes and occasionally going for arm drag singles Rafa doesn't have much of a wrestling game. Styliistically Andre is very well suited to win absolutes in a way that Rafa isn't.

 

[asian-glow]

Assuming Rafa could get to the same size as Galvao there's also a huge style fifference. Rafa is very open about the fact that he doesn't like training wrestling. Galvao is the opposite. He won his adcc absolute title with a lot of wrestling and he's defended his superfight title since then with a lot of wrestling. Besides baiting single legs to attack front chokes and occasionally going for arm drag singles Rafa doesn't have much of a wrestling game. Styliistically Andre is very well suited to win absolutes in a way that Rafa isn't.

1. Why doesn't Rafa like wrestling?
2. I've seen Rafa bait a lot of dudes with that single leg - feeds right into his anaconda. How does one avoid this?

 

[yetanother]

1. Why doesn't Rafa like wrestling?
2. I've seen Rafa bait a lot of dudes with that single leg - feeds right into his anaconda. How does one avoid this?

In all his Art of Jiu Jitsu rolls Rafa is super happy when he hits a takedown on someone.

 

[yetanother]

Rafa claimed in past interviews that wrestling wasn't technical I would guess he was taught it by some bjj guys/mma meatheads or in a simplified manner treating him like a 5 year old kid.

 

[mataleaos]

1. Why doesn't Rafa like wrestling?
2. I've seen Rafa bait a lot of dudes with that single leg - feeds right into his anaconda. How does one avoid this?

1. I think he's pretty good at wrestling and maybe he likes it okay but after he lost to Cobrinha at adcc 2013 he had an interview with Budo Jake that's on youtube somewhere and he talks about how he and his brother were actually high school champs in wrestling. But he just says that he would rather pull guard and sweep or have the other person pull. Maybe he didn't say he dislikes it but he said it's just less fun to him than working on the floor. There were rolls of him on the old AOJ website without the gi where he hit some impressive takedowns on guys

2. I would say you can avoid the chokes by keeping your head hard on the inside when you go for the single. That's the best way. Cobrinha did a great job defending though. There's a good breakdown of Cobrinha's choke defense as well as a video by Cobrinha saying how he escaped the choke. Cobrinha doesn't use Rafa's name but it's clear that's who he is talking about. Neither video focuses more on the choke defense than how to single leg and keep your head safe but I thought you'd like these anyways.

 

[yetanother]

Assuming Rafa could get to the same size as Galvao there's also a huge style fifference.

The question is how would he perform after all that roiding up.

 

[yetanother]

1. I think he's pretty good at wrestling and maybe he likes it okay but after he lost to Cobrinha at adcc 2013 he had an interview with Budo Jake that's on youtube somewhere and he talks about how he and his brother were actually high school champs in wrestling.

Rafa was the under -17 (don't remember the exact category) champ in national champ in wrestling their BJJ coach made him and Gui compete in it because they didn't like takedowns.
It's hardly surprising he didn't like wrestling if he learned it from a pure BJJer.

 

[HunterAcosta]

I would say that to those that rolled with Rafa and said he “ felt strong , but not THAT strong , I’ve felt stronger “ , I would say that PROBABLY he was soo much better than you technically , that he didn’t HAVE to use his full strength , which is a scary thing really . I know when I roll with whites and most blues ( I’m Brown belt) , some of them might say to me you got me , but didn’t feel particularly strong .” To that I would say “ I didn’t have to use full strength of my tightest squeeze to get u , or even give the maximum pressure on mount or side control .” That’s my two cents .

 

[mataleaos]

I would say that to those that rolled with Rafa and said he “ felt strong , but not THAT strong , I’ve felt stronger “ , I would say that PROBABLY he was soo much better than you technically , that he didn’t HAVE to use his full strength , which is a scary thing really . I know when I roll with whites and most blues ( I’m Brown belt) , some of them might say to me you got me , but didn’t feel particularly strong .” To that I would say “ I didn’t have to use full strength of my tightest squeeze to get u , or even give the maximum pressure on mount or side control .” That’s my two cents .

That's a very good point. I mean I guess it's dumb to say he's not strong. I think his most underrated physical attribute for grappling is his hand size. His hands are fucking huge for any man let alone a featherweight. I think that's partially why he can finish those anaconda chokes on Galvao and darce chokes on Keenan because those are broad guys several weight classes above him. His hands have that extra reach. And Rafa's grips are so hard to strip and I think some of it is his giant claws just get a grip and then it's basically over. I don't think I've ever seen him get grips stripped. Ironically he's passing a lot now without even using grips on material.

 

[asian-glow]

That's a very good point. I mean I guess it's dumb to say he's not strong. I think his most underrated physical attribute for grappling is his hand size. His hands are fucking huge for any man let alone a featherweight. I think that's partially why he can finish those anaconda chokes on Galvao and darce chokes on Keenan because those are broad guys several weight classes above him. His hands have that extra reach. And Rafa's grips are so hard to strip and I think some of it is his giant claws just get a grip and then it's basically over. I don't think I've ever seen him get grips stripped. Ironically he's passing a lot now without even using grips on material.

I know the "Rickson Cup Rafa passing craze" has been over for some years now but I would still like to learn to pass like this. I'm trying to figure out how to avoid the guy gripping, particularly on my sleeves and ankles, which I suspect may be the key to this style of passing.

He doesn't seem to pass like this when he's with other high level guys. I suspect this type of hyper mobile dancing is possible only when there is a huge skill difference between dancing lead and dancing victim.

 

[mataleaos]

I know the "Rickson Cup Rafa passing craze" has been over for some years now but I would still like to learn to pass like this. I'm trying to figure out how to avoid the guy gripping, particularly on my sleeves and ankles, which I suspect may be the key to this style of passing.

He doesn't seem to pass like this when he's with other high level guys. I suspect this type of hyper mobile dancing is possible only when there is a huge skill difference between dancing lead and dancing victim.

I think you're on to some things. There were a few matches he had before his last Worlds at a regional IBJJF tournament and he was doing this type of passing there. I'm not sure it's so much that it's only possible with a big skill difference but I know Rafa is the type to not really try things against high level opponents that aren't very tried and true for him. I think he likes to work on something for at least a couple years before really breaking it out against top shelf opponents.

I think if he stayed in the game we may have seen him try it more at Worlds or ADCC maybe but since he retired when he was mastering that style maybe we didn't see it as much? Because he did it against Quexinho I think. I'd consider him a high level guy. You could be right though.

I know as far as avoiding grips he's big on using C-grips with your hands to deflect ankles and hands away. One of his black belts was saying it's a lot like boxing. Parrying jabs, etc. I'm more familiar with the hand work to parry hooks and grips than I am his foot work. I know the cross step and high long step and I use them sometimes but I can't do that 'floating on the outside range' footwork he does. I believe he stands just out of range of their hooks and when they try to connect he uses his shins or his hands to guide them out of the way.

 

[asian-glow]

I think you're on to some things. There were a few matches he had before his last Worlds at a regional IBJJF tournament and he was doing this type of passing there. I'm not sure it's so much that it's only possible with a big skill difference but I know Rafa is the type to not really try things against high level opponents that aren't very tried and true for him. I think he likes to work on something for at least a couple years before really breaking it out against top shelf opponents.

I think if he stayed in the game we may have seen him try it more at Worlds or ADCC maybe but since he retired when he was mastering that style maybe we didn't see it as much? Because he did it against Quexinho I think. I'd consider him a high level guy. You could be right though.

I know as far as avoiding grips he's big on using C-grips with your hands to deflect ankles and hands away. One of his black belts was saying it's a lot like boxing. Parrying jabs, etc. I'm more familiar with the hand work to parry hooks and grips than I am his foot work. I know the cross step and high long step and I use them sometimes but I can't do that 'floating on the outside range' footwork he does. I believe he stands just out of range of their hooks and when they try to connect he uses his shins or his hands to guide them out of the way.

Thanks.

I've heard a few sources, including people I know personally, that playing guard with Rafa is like trying to grab air. This is hard for my mind to comprehend since I'm covered head to toe in easily grabable material. It might also have to do with my style as I almost always enter the "headquarters" position where my first passing attempt is almost always a knee cut, leaving my body easy to grab.

I'm going to have to look up some of his matches and analyze more closely what it is he's doing.

 

[yetanother]

Rafa teaches his flowing passing on his website. You have would have to drill it a bunch and do a ton of positional sparring with someone who has a decent open guard (not a half guard player or someone who will turtle up)

 

[ijustwannasurf]

Thanks.

I've heard a few sources, including people I know personally, that playing guard with Rafa is like trying to grab air. This is hard for my mind to comprehend since I'm covered head to toe in easily grabable material. It might also have to do with my style as I almost always enter the "headquarters" position where my first passing attempt is almost always a knee cut, leaving my body easy to grab.

I'm going to have to look up some of his matches and analyze more closely what it is he's doing.

A big part of it is mindset. Like you, I'd bet a lot of us enter a position and start passing. We're starting at stage 2 or 3. We're accepting the meta-game: guarder vs. passer, an established exchange of positions.

Rafa doesn't do that. He starts from stage zero. He is incredibly skilled, and moves incredibly well. But in my opinion, his biggest advantage is where he starts the game from in his head.

 

[asian-glow]

A big part of it is mindset. Like you, I'd bet a lot of us enter a position and start passing. We're starting at stage 2 or 3. We're accepting the meta-game: guarder vs. passer, an established exchange of positions.

Rafa doesn't do that. He starts from stage zero. He is incredibly skilled, and moves incredibly well. But in my opinion, his biggest advantage is where he starts the game from in his head.

Yea this is the conclusion I've been thinking about for about the past year or so. As the old adage goes, the best way to get out of a bad position is to not get into it. I think the furthest extension of this train of thought, while still engaging in combat, is to just take a guy down straight into side control or back control. As a result, I've been trying to get better at my takedowns.

From what I gather, the Mendes Bros. are masters at disrupting and sort of wormholing through the traditional meta. They will berimbolo people straight to the back, avoiding the headache of passing modern guards and dealing with the turtle. Even when passing, Rafa denies grips entirely so that people can never even get their game going. Nip everything at the bud.

As an extension, the DDS helped pioneer a new type of wormholing where they successfully avoid traditional positional hierarchy and create a new one by attacking the legs instead.

As an aside, my only criticism of the dance passing is that it seems like it would take a long time to master and it seems cardio intensive.

 

[mataleaos]

Yea this is the conclusion I've been thinking about for about the past year or so. As the old adage goes, the best way to get out of a bad position is to not get into it. I think the furthest extension of this train of thought, while still engaging in combat, is to just take a guy down straight into side control or back control. As a result, I've been trying to get better at my takedowns.

From what I gather, the Mendes Bros. are masters at disrupting and sort of wormholing through the traditional meta. They will berimbolo people straight to the back, avoiding the headache of passing modern guards and dealing with the turtle. Even when passing, Rafa denies grips entirely so that people can never even get their game going. Nip everything at the bud.

As an extension, the DDS helped pioneer a new type of wormholing where they successfully avoid traditional positional hierarchy and create a new one by attacking the legs instead.

As an aside, my only criticism of the dance passing is that it seems like it would take a long time to master and it seems cardio intensive.

Good post and low key Rafa was one of the first modern era guys to do a lot of the kimura grip and front headlock grip control and then just somersault through the guard to pass it and go right to a sub or better position. A lot of newer grapplers seem to give the DDS a lot of credit for doing a lot of kimura trap and front headlock 'systems' in no gi right now but the early Atos squad was all over that stuff. So Rafa was even avoiding the traditional hierarchy even without the gi in the late 00's. He was one of the first to be all over the kiss of the dragon too which is basically the reverse direction berimbolo that works better for no gi than the regular berimbolo. But that also lets you skip the sweep and pass and takes you straight from guard to the back.

A lot of the best and most innovative guys skipped through the hierarchy. Marcelo Garcia's arm drag straight to the RNC with no hooks comes to mind.

 

[Aethyr]

I've always given Rafa shit for the Clark match but this post seems a little bit hater-ish? Maybe? He just refused to change strategy and that was the most frustrating part of the match for me.

I'm more of a Cobrinha fan than a Rafa fan but I've always found it curious that people always give Rafa so much shit for not really doing absolutes but not any other featherweights. Has a featherweight besides Royler Gracie even made it onto an absolute podium at worlds or adcc?

At some point I do think you have to recognize that doing absolutes are going to make it more likely for a featherweight to get injured. Rafa is not going to win absolute gold at worlds or adcc no matter how skilled he is. He wasn;t going to beat guys like Buchecha or Rodolfo. Also in ibjjf the absolute division happens before the weight classes. Why risk the injury? Marcelo Garcia is banged up these days from doing absolute divisions at adcc and he's a couple weight classes bigger than Rafa is.

I would've rather seen Rafa give lightweight a shot more than I wanted to see him try absolute divisions. Or possibly even step outside of his 2 preferred rule sets and given EBI a shot when he was invited. I think he would've been hard to beat in that format.

Yeah, its a bit hater-ish because while Rafa is probably the best at his weight, he's tried to pull the Rickson-esque mystique that he's unbeatable, by posting rolling vids of him submitting high level super heavyweights. Nevermind that they either didn't know they're being filmed, rolling friendly, or fucking tired, while Rafa was fresh as a daisy. And then you have people like the TS who sees these vids and thinks Rafa must have superhuman strength. Don't get me wrong, Rafa is insanely good and one of the top grapplers of all time. But posting those vids of him submitting those heavies was a deceptive way of implying he could beat those guys, despite never having faced superheavies in competition, where the field is level (other than weight), without freshness or light rolling being the issue. And the Clark match shattered that illusion, that Rafa is great, but human.

The closest I came to wondering if a grappler was superhuman was Roger in Roger vs Buchecha 2. Buchecha, untouchable, at the top of his game, wrecking everyone, himself gets completely wrecked by an old, non-competing, out-of-his-prime Roger Gracie. If Roger did that in a filmed gym roll, I wouldn't think much of it. But he did it in competition, no illusions, no deceptions.

 

[yetanother]

It's likely Rafa would look a lot better against Clark in a normal points match not some stupid sub-only metamoris event.

 

[mataleaos]

Yeah, its a bit hater-ish because while Rafa is probably the best at his weight, he's tried to pull the Rickson-esque mystique that he's unbeatable, by posting rolling vids of him submitting high level super heavyweights. Nevermind that they either didn't know they're being filmed, rolling friendly, or fucking tired, while Rafa was fresh as a daisy. And then you have people like the TS who sees these vids and thinks Rafa must have superhuman strength. Don't get me wrong, Rafa is insanely good and one of the top grapplers of all time. But posting those vids of him submitting those heavies was a deceptive way of implying he could beat those guys, despite never having faced superheavies in competition, where the field is level (other than weight), without freshness or light rolling being the issue. And the Clark match shattered that illusion, that Rafa is great, but human.

The closest I came to wondering if a grappler was superhuman was Roger in Roger vs Buchecha 2. Buchecha, untouchable, at the top of his game, wrecking everyone, himself gets completely wrecked by an old, non-competing, out-of-his-prime Roger Gracie. If Roger did that in a filmed gym roll, I wouldn't think much of it. But he did it in competition, no illusions, no deceptions.

I never looked at it exactly in that light but I am basically on the same page with you.