Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by rizky, Aug 7, 2016.
If not why bruce lee practice it a lot
The best way to answer that question is to try by yourself.
I only know about pak and lop sao and the easy answer to "do they work?" is no (there is arguable value in them but there are far better ways to learn from them). As for why Bruce trained in them it was because he was from a less advanced era of unarmed combatant and simply didnt know any better.
When I did a bit of WC, and JKD I was taught the pak sau, it felt and looked a lot more like a parry. Dosent it mean slapping hand or some such? So my opinion is that it is parry and should be used as such as we all know parries work.
Now Lop sau looks a lot like a Karate Chudan uki with out the chamber that karate normally has. I have no idea if that works or not, as I have yet to see any karate or any other art that contains a similar movement utilize it in a sparring context.
I think trapping is a bad name for it,as my experience with them, how ever brief, was to use them as parries. Which I think is fine. Nothing works unless you actually spend a lot of time in sparring trying.. It takes more then one session to get it right..
Are you 100% sure you know that is the real reason why?
Obviously not, I didnt know the man. Maybe it was a personal bias influenced by cultural identity, I obviously cant say for certain but the fact is that boxing catch and parry drills train exactly the same principles of pak sao and is objectivity better. But yes, I'm doubling down on the fact that the current era of martial arts is far beyond what Bruce was trained in
Oh ok. That makes sense then. Yeah, at the most basic level, a simple pak sao is as simple as a parry/catch drill. But they have their distinct differences and with advanced skill in hand trapping, it's very, very different.
I've sparred with boxers who were my size, or also light heavy weights and I was able to apply some JKD trapping drills. It really works, which is quite contrary to common disbelief. I disagree that Bruce Lee came from an inferior era though, there was still great fighters in the 1960s and 1970s, it's just that most of the great fighters were only good at their respective styles. Even though there wasn't many mixed martial artists, there was still lots of good fighters who were good at their 1 respective style. After all, Muhammad Ali and George Foreman were from that era.
The hand trapping techniques work, I've personally applied it in full contact sparring against a boxer. Really not much has changed about stand up fighting since the 1970s, just more mixed martial artists and more acceptance for ground fighting, but not much has changed.
I read that as 'corner carry' and thought to myself 'Bruce was an fgc og?'
He'd be a moridoom player I'd bet.
Or hipster Pak Sao?
That was a sharp left from Cro Cop.
The thing with the pak sao is you are using a hand to trap instead of to hit. The pak sao is not a parry, it is a counter attack that you would do after your opponent parries your hit.
The lop sao, on the other hand uses the hand you just punched with to grab and pull your opponents wrist. Tough to do if your opponent is sweaty, but rather easy if he's wearing a jacket. And, you still have your other hand available to hit.
Chesten hit the nail on the head. I can't really comment on WC trapping, but in JKD the idea is to just get the limb out of the way so you can hit the guy. I've used it in full contact sparring with some success, but much like any other technique, it's value is limited in some situations.
Knowing what trapping is supposed to do and practicing accordingly is the biggest factor in whether or not you'll be able to make it work for you in the right situations. If you train trapping for the sake of trapping, you're going to spend a lot of time chasing limbs in vain. If you train trapping as one of the five ways of attack in JKD, you're going to be using it just like your other ways of finding / making an opening
Trapping is not parrying. Parrying redirects the opponent's attack and that's about it. It's passive and relies on your opponent to do something first. You can turn a parry into a trap yes, but trapping is active, it doesn't require your opponent to do anything at all. You can trap their attack, you can trap their retreat, you can trap their hesitation, the initiative is yours.
The clips of trapping that Chesten put up are great examples of defensive trapping, but trapping can be offensive too. If you can get someone to cover up, or even better, extend their arms on your attack, you can then open them up for hitting. You'll see a lot of this happen in ground and pound situations, where the person in the dominant position is trying to get their opponent's arms out of the way so they can punch/elbow/etc.
The pak sao is a deflecting block. You can use it whenever you want.
The lop sao is a grab and pull to trap and/or pull the opponent off balance. You don't have to have just punched for it to be used. The good thing about the wrist is that it narrows and then flares out at the hand making a natural pommel so it's easy to hang onto. Sweat isn't a huge complicator unless you'vd got small hands and your opponent has big wrists (even then, with or without sweat, I would not waste my time using a lop).
In Wing Chun, the pak sao is a deflecting block that crosses centerline. JKD does not use the pak sao this way, as it is never a good idea to cross centerline. The way I learned JKD back in the 90s used the basic pat from boxing or footwork to get avoid a punch-or go for a Jeet tec or destruction. The pak sao was used when the way i described it above.
Then it depends if you are studying under an instructor that follows the JKD concepts or the JKD framework. Language may vary.
Inosanto lineage, so I guess JKD concepts-I never got into that whole debate
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