Do you think Sagetdao is washed up?

[executionermma]

He wasn't Raja champ. And even if he was, it doesn't mean anything. Malaipet wasn't a good fighter.

I have read it from different sources, are you sure?
That always seems to be a credible one in regards to MT/K1.

People like you just make lazy reference to these title without knowing what they mean. Being a stadium champion does not make you a great fighter, by default.

How so? Elaborate please. Considering both stadiums have their ranking system that doesn't make any sense for me.

Also, in regards to your previous post. As i said to Coca, the difference with KB/Karate/boxing is that fighters with these backgrounds have been very successful in MMA. No Thai has been successful in MMA.
In my opinion it's about the style, it just doesn't translate well enough into MMA, and i have heard legit FMT competitors say the same, that the stance/rhythm doesn't fit them in MMA. To Thai elitists the reason is just that "Thais never cared enough to try", total BS.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

For reference these are muay thai fighters, I know of, who I would consider good:
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Rambaa-Somdet-3390
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Yokthai-Sithoar-71210
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Muangfahlek-Kiatwichkien-14164
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Jomhod-Kiatadisak-189111
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Sagetdao-Petpayathai-247067
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dejdamrong-Sor-Amnuaysirichoke-168471
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ramon-Dekker-12559

Malaipet is not one of them.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

How so? Elaborate please. Considering both stadiums have their ranking system that doesn't make any sense for me.

Also, in regards to your previous post. As i said to Coca, the difference with KB/Karate/boxing is that fighters with these backgrounds have been very successful in MMA. No Thai has been successful in MMA.

The title isn't that important and the rankings don't mean much. Fighters can move up the ranks and fight for titles without fighting their best contemporaries and titles aren't defended every time out. Fighters don't have to defend their titles consistently or even compete at the weight, in order to retain them.

How many "high level" pedigreed standup fighters have had successful MMA careers? Cro Cop, Hunt and Machida? That's not many and considering how many more kickboxers and karate guys have given MMA a shot than muay thai fighters, I'd say it would be very premature to write off muay thai in comparison.

In my opinion it's about the style, it just doesn't translate well enough into MMA, and i have heard legit FMT competitors say the same, that the stance/rhythm doesn't fit them in MMA. To Thai elitists the reason is just that "Thais never cared enough to try", total BS.

Where did either of us say that? Why don't you @ Julius Cesar instead.

 

[executionermma]

I'd say it would be very premature to write off muay thai in comparison.

Agree on disagree on that, but i think the rest of your post it's fair.

You also forgot Adesanya, Graham, Mighty Mo, Gluhov, Kudin, Lewis-Parry.. tbh there has been many mid lv HW kickboxers who made the transition to MMA and went on to become successful. Braddock is trying. Gerges is next.

Where did either of us say that? Why don't you @ Julius Cesar instead.

I've had the impression that many of @Cocakillbana posts suggests that, and that's delusional BS to me. I think we can agree on that?

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

You also forgot Adesanya, Graham, Mighty Mo, Gluhov, Kudin, Lewis-Parry.. tbh there has been many mid lv HW kickboxers who made the transition to MMA and went on to become successful. Braddock is trying. Gerges is next.

None of those guys has been remotely successful, but adesanya.

You pretty clearly a delusional kickboxing mark or thai hater, if you're trying to make the case for guys like that; while denigrating someone like Dejdamrong.

 

[Blazeblack]

Rambaa Somdet was considered the best at his weight when he was shooto champion if I remember correctly.

 

[executionermma]

None of those guys has been remotely successful, but adesanya.

You pretty clearly a delusional kickboxing mark or thai hater, if you're trying to make the case for guys like that; while denigrating someone like Dejdamrong.

Depends of your definition of success. Kudin just headlined a FNG event and has many great wins on his record, same for Mighty Mo. Graham fought for Bellator and KSW, 2 big promotions. Lewis-Parry is undefeated although he has yet to fight respectable competition.

I'm a MMA fan first, kickboxing fan second. I don't follow FMT but i respect it, Thai elitists denying the reality is my problem. Comparable to Thais, kickboxers have succeeded in MMA, specially but not exclusively at HW.

Rambaa Somdet was considered the best at his weight when he was shooto champion if I remember correctly.

Yep, that seems to be the case, he's the only one that had a good career. Dej's was respectable, decent at best.

 

[Mafanofe]

most of the thais start to train at 7, compete at the age of 13-15 on high level and start to decline heavily at the age of 22-24 due the insane competition and ammount of fights they had in their life( its fair to say it and not only fight career,because most of the guys made it their entire life until they retire)

Comparing 10-15-20 past primed years Thais coming of retirement competing in another sport with kickboxers isnt fair, because they are into two very different situations.

the day you have an 16-18 yo thais moving into an legit MMA gym and having like 1,5-2 years of exclusive training and they didnt make relatively success on the sport you can state something as a fact

 

[Snubnoze707]

LOL it's common knowledge that Malaipet didn't even train for fights when he moved out here to CA. He was out drinking and banging chicks. I wouldn't hold his attempt at MMA in high regard.

Pretty much the few handful of Thai's that have tried competing in MMA are past their prime after a full career in Muay Thai which can account for the success rate. Rambaa being the exception as he was considered the #1 guy at 115 for years if you followed the sport back then, but he had the advantage of living in Japan and getting proper MMA training. I don't think their is a single person here, Thai Hipsters included, that think Muay Thai on it's own is enough to compete in MMA.

To write off Muay Thai as a base for MMA is so hilariously bad because their are hundreds of non-Thai's that have done just that with ample success in the sport.

@executionermma I'm disappointed in you...

 

[UWanaPlayDaGame]

@executionermma you just wanna troll cocakillbana don't you?

 

[executionermma]

@executionermma you just wanna troll cocakillbana don't you?

 

[SuperLuigi]

More like it was overturned because it was a clear win to the Chinese kid.. that 21 years old background is wrestling, yes, but not a national champion. Going to the fight he was 5-2.
Not exactly a terrible loss, but pretty much highlights what i've been talking about, Traditional MT seems like a terrible base for MMA.

I thought Sagetdao won, no way the Chinese guy won it clearly. I do agree that 20 years of traditional Muay Thai is a bad base for MMA though. Typically in MMA fights they throw a heavy body kick and get taken down and submitted. But I also fully recognise our sample size is tiny and it doesn't really make sense to write off an art based on that. Remember that wrestling world champion who went like 3-2 in MMA? Small sample sizes can be very deceiving.

 

[executionermma]

I thought Sagetdao won, no way the Chinese guy won it clearly. I do agree that 20 years of traditional Muay Thai is a bad base for MMA though. Typically in MMA fights they throw a heavy body kick and get taken down and submitted. But I also fully recognise our sample size is tiny and it doesn't really make sense to write off an art based on that. Remember that wrestling world champion who went like 3-2 in MMA? Small sample sizes can be very deceiving.

Seriously? Using MMA scoring (10 point-must by rounds) ? Had it for the Chinese with no problem..

To be honest i don't think it's just the 15-20 years of miles on them, i think the overall style doesn't translate well, the traditional stance is too narrow, it's almost a invitation to double legs, then it leads to MT guys becoming gunshy because of the takedown threat. That's why Till had a MT background (very amateurish tho) and still changed his stance in MMA to one much more wide open, and it worked.
Also spamming body kicks like some Thais like to do it's just a terrible idea in MMA, eventually it will be catch and then good luck with your back on the ground.
The sample size is really tiny, i agree. This was mostly a jab at Coca. Couldn't resist it.

 

[NoSmilez]

Thais don't really care about MMA. There isn't any interest in Thailand for MMA. They just show up for the paycheck. In general, when a Thai starts fighting non thais; they are at the beginning of their retirement tour. I personally seen Thais hiding in 7/11 during the morning run since they are fighting foreigners. I am not going to lie; I was lazy and skipped the run that day as well. I also don't want to shit on a current young mma competitor but the short time I was there; I never seen him roll even once. I firmly believe they don't give a shit since records don't mean anything for them except for the pay.
Sagetdao wouldn't even be a fighter I would consider his skills to translate to MMA or even kickboxing rules. He is simply too clinch heavy.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Seriously? Using MMA scoring (10 point-must by rounds) ?

There's no such thing as "MMA scoring". One scores fights holistically, like Pride did.

 

[executionermma]

Thais don't really care about MMA. There isn't any interest in Thailand for MMA.

I don't believe that, for me it's just a excuse. Many Thais currently are at Evolve MMA, they do care. It's their daily job & if they didn't wanted to actually fight, they could just stay retired and keep teaching MT there.

They just show up for the paycheck. In general, when a Thai starts fighting non thais; they are at the beginning of their retirement tour.

That doesn't mean they can't perform well for a few years. Look at how many Thais transitioned to KB in recent years and are fighting top competition and doing incredible well. Sitthichai, Petch, Yod, Superbon etc. Also look at some Thais at their 30's in ONE, like Nong-O and Sam-A, they are still performing at a decent lv and winning.

There's no such thing as "MMA scoring". One scores fights holistically, like Pride did.

By MMA scoring i mean the Unified Rules approved by ABC, which is the scoring system used by 90% of MMA promotions, specially in the West.
Anyway, i thought ONE had changed that, i apologize.

 

[NoSmilez]

I don't believe that, for me it's just a excuse. Many Thais currently are at Evolve MMA, they do care. It's their daily job & if they didn't wanted to actually fight, they could just stay retired and keep teaching MT there.
That doesn't mean they can't perform well for a few years. Look at how many Thais transitioned to KB in recent years and are fighting top competition and doing incredible well. Sitthichai, Petch, Yod, Superbon etc. Also look at some Thais at their 30's in ONE, like Nong-O and Sam-A, they are still performing at a decent lv and winning.
By MMA scoring i mean the Unified Rules approved by ABC, which is the scoring system used by 90% of MMA promotions, specially in the West.
Anyway, i thought ONE had changed that, i apologize.

I don't think you ever been around there before. You have to see it from their perspective. How much does teaching pay? When they take a fight, it doesn't matter because there is no more betting on top and they still get a big purse. They just get paid and win/lose doesn't matter on their record. You really don't watch the sport or train in it. You know how many ex lumpinee champions just show up to be fodder for boxing matches?

Evolve is not a competitive gym. It's a graveyard for big named thai boxers to make some easy money. It is a really nice gym with a lot of girls there. I don't mean to bash Evolve since I haven't been in Singapore for so many years. You bring up Sam-A and Nong like they aren't retired. They go from fighting every month to not fighting for a few years then fighting for evolve once a year. You are telling me that they aren't on their retirement tour. I am also pretty sure that whatever kickboxing weight they are fighting at is higher than what their competitive weight is.

I love Yodsanklai but he hasn't been competitive in thailand for many years. When you tune in to watch him, it is pretty much watch the Thai bash the westerner. They don't even have a weight class for him in Thailand. In general, once a Thai fights a foreigner; they will move up in weight class and stop fighting other Thais. There were some exceptions like Saenchai but he is pretty much on a foreigner globe trotter tour where he gives up a lot of weight and does tricks.

 

[executionermma]

You bring up Sam-A and Nong like they aren't retired. They go from fighting every month to not fighting for a few years then fighting for evolve once a year. You are telling me that they aren't on their retirement tour.

I didn't said that. I said that being on retirement tour doesn't stop them of performing well and winning against foreigners.

If they can translate well into KB like many Thais in theirs 20's did, and keep relatively competitive in their early 30's on more international MT (mid to lower lv competition), there's no reason to why they shouldn't be able to be successful in MMA against mid lv competition, other than, of course, FMT not being a good background for MMA, that's it.

 

[Monte Moku]

I didn't said that. I said that being on retirement tour doesn't stop them of performing well and winning against foreigners.

If they can translate well into KB like many Thais in theirs 20's did, and keep relatively competitive in their early 30's on more international MT (mid to lower lv competition), there's no reason to why they shouldn't be able to be successful in MMA against mid lv competition, other than, of course, FMT not being a good background for MMA, that's it.

You are comparing the eras of an athlete's life where they are fighting to prove themselves to an era where they are fighting for a paycheck. You are comparing an athlete's performance after the transition to a sport with less techniques (Muay Thai -> Kickboxing) and possibilites to one with more techniques and possibilities (Muay Thai -> MMA), as well as ignoring the fact that these athletes generally physically peak earlier than other athletes (I.e., most people in MMA) generally due to the childhood physical trauma, and other things usually associated with that.

It's not that Muay Thai is a bad base for MMA, it's just that you have no clue what you are talking about. Before you make another dumb post like this, try actually researching the sport you plan on shitting on, because when you don't it is a cringefest for anyone who took the 20 minutes to Google the most basic shit about Muay Thai when they first became a fan.

 

[executionermma]

You are comparing the eras of an athlete's life where they are fighting to prove themselves to an era where they are fighting for a paycheck.

By that logic they're fighting for a paycheck in both KB and MMA, under one ruleset they have succeeded, under another they failed, to some extent.

You are comparing an athlete's performance after the transition to a sport with less techniques (Muay Thai -> Kickboxing) and possibilites to one with more techniques and possibilities (Muay Thai -> MMA)

Yes, i am, and i took that in consideration. I'm acknowledging that and it's part to why i believe MT it's not a good base to MMA. To kickboxing it is. History would suggest i'm right.

as well as ignoring the fact that these athletes generally physically peak earlier than other athletes (I.e., most people in MMA) generally due to the childhood physical trauma, and other things usually associated with that.

I'm not ignoring that. Everything that Mafanofe said it's true, but while he's right in general, this thread for example is about a fighter that doesn't fit his post, a outlier, someone that at 26 was fighting at the highest lv, someone that probably didn't started training at 7/8 years old, because many do, some don't, some start at 12/13/14. I just checked the Lumpinee/Raja rankings and there's a Thai 30 years old champion at 135.

It's not that Muay Thai is a bad base for MMA

I disagree. I also don't think any Thai will ever be successful at the highest lv of MMA. Just my personal opinion. I appreciate your collaboration though.