Opinion Do You Support Free Speech? Then You Should Support Unions.

[luckyshot]

It is a pretty popular sentiment that people should be able to express whatever political opinions they want-- even if those opinions are offensive to some-- and they should not face repercussions in terms of threats to their employment and livelihood. They shouldn't be "cancelled" or "fired."

Great.

Only one problem: Our current system of "at will employment" allows employees to be fired at any time for any reason (or no reason at all).

If you support this system, then your position that "People should be able to voice their opinions all they want, but businesses should not be able to fire over it" is completely contradictory and untenable.

Only unions afford employees some measure of protection-- whether it be for free speech or any other issue.

Oh. And guess which party supports unions...


Biden throws support behind unions amid Alabama Amazon workers' landmark vote
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bid...amid-alabama-amazon-workers/story?id=76181725



Biden to launch pro-union task force
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/26/biden-pro-union-task-force-484625

 

[MaxMMA]

Unions are great in theory. In reality all they usually do is tear down the company by protecting unproductive workers that should have been fired years ago.

 

[AWilder]

Unions are great in theory. In reality all they usually do is tear down the company by protecting unproductive workers that should have been fired years ago.

That's a failure of management to follow the process of terminating an unproductive employee. I managed union guys and was a union member prior to that. And this is a common misconceptions. I fired plenty of lazy dudes. You just have to follow the process. Coaching, improvement plan, feedback, warning, etc. Escalating to the point that they have to improve or be fired. It's a lengthy process that takes 3-4 months but it gives union employees a fair opportunity to fix the problem.

Unless you're talking about police unions. Police unions are the worst and give labor unions a bad name

 

[lilelvis]

I support people’s right to be in unions, or not be in unions..

 

[lilelvis]

Unions are great in theory. In reality all they usually do is tear down the company by protecting unproductive workers that should have been fired years ago.

Also makes in difficult to win bids in a free market or remain solvent over the long haul. Those bennies add up over time.

 

[tenniswhiz]

It is a pretty popular sentiment that people should be able to express whatever political opinions they want-- even if those opinions are offensive to some-- and they should not face repercussions in terms of threats to their employment and livelihood. They shouldn't be "cancelled" or "fired."

Great.

Only one problem: Our current system of "at will employment" allows employees to be fired at any time for any reason (or no reason at all).

If you support this system, then your position that "People should be able to voice their opinions all they want, but businesses should not be able to fire over it" is completely contradictory and untenable.

Only unions afford employees some measure of protection-- whether it be for free speech or any other issue.

Oh. And guess which party supports unions...


Biden throws support behind unions amid Alabama Amazon workers' landmark vote
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bid...amid-alabama-amazon-workers/story?id=76181725



Biden to launch pro-union task force
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/26/biden-pro-union-task-force-484625

But it’s not truly “at will” employment either.
You can’t fire someone because they won’t sleep with you, because of race/sexual orientation. If someone even detects a whiff of that (or imagines a whiff of it), you could be in big trouble.

 

[llperez22]

my mom was a postal employee who have a union and she said it was pretty awful in that they protected shit employees who were lazy including some who even stole and some who didnt contribute to union fees even after the union saved their jobs. Im pretty meh to them based on that being my only first hand knowledge of them but I know thats just one anecdotal union in particular.

 

[Gregolian]

I get why they exist.

I just didn’t like the one I was required to be a member of at my last job.

 

[grimballer]

unions pretty much outgrew their usefulness and are a scam at this point.

 

[MaxMMA]

That's a failure of management to follow the process of terminating an unproductive employee. I managed union guys and was a union member prior to that. And this is a common misconceptions. I fired plenty of lazy dudes. You just have to follow the process. Coaching, improvement plan, feedback, warning, etc. Escalating to the point that they have to improve or be fired. It's a lengthy process that takes 3-4 months but it gives union employees a fair opportunity to fix the problem.

Unless you're talking about police unions. Police unions are the worst and give labor unions a bad name

This is exactly why people don't support unions. Generally speaking, you know what your responsibilities will be at a job before you even start a job.

A manager shouldn't have to jump through 3 months of hoops to fire shitty employees. If you're doing what you were hired to do, then you should be good.

 

[AWilder]

This is exactly why people don't support unions. Generally speaking, you know what your responsibilities will be at a job before you even start a job.

A manager shouldn't have to jump through 3 months of hoops to fire shitty employees. If you're doing what you were hired to do, then you should be good.

Well, I have experience on both sides of the issue and I disagree. If everyone got fired the second they weren't performing 100% we'd all have a lot of terminations under our belts.

 

[Mr Holmes]

This logic really doesn't make sense. Contract employment is also a counter to employment at will. Plus there are plenty of legal reasons that make it so a person can't just be fired at an employment at will position.

I don't see why you can't be against someone being fired for an opinion and also against unions.

 

[shankmcgank]

Canadian here.

Our employment laws are a lot different than yours in America.

I'm currently a union member and support it, but wouldn't honestly care if we didn't have one either.

The biggest benefit that I see is a unified front in the face of poor management and employee harassment.

On the flipside, the biggest detriment is that it takes forever to fire lazy fuck co-workers, and I'm not talking about new hires who don't know any better. There are guys I work with, who have been here 20+ years, that just flat out refuse to do the work they are required to, company standards of quality that are well documented in manuals, and these guys just can't be bothered to do a quality job.

Inevitably, someone else does their job for them, and get shit on for it, because they took 4 hours cleaning up Lazy Fucks mess, when they were only given 1 or 2 hours to complete the work. So the Lazy Fucks end up screwing over the guys who actually do their jobs and the "clean up crew" technicians end up on a performance plan and receiving coaching for "being too slow".

TL;DR Unions can be good, but they do protect undeserving lazy fucks.

 

[badascan]

I've been a USW union member for a decade and I can say it's a double edged sword at times but there are non union employees from different companies that are in the same industry doing the "same" job and being part of a union is a much better option.

In principle unions are a good thing, in practice power corrupts people. Money causes individuals to sell their integrity and influence...

 

[BEER]

Collective bargaining is far more powerful than individualistic efforts.

I support unions and will never cross a picket line.

 

[MaxMMA]

Well, I have experience on both sides of the issue and I disagree. If everyone got fired the second they weren't performing 100% we'd all have a lot of terminations under our belts.

Not what I said, most decent leaders can tell when someone is having an off day or week, and obviously it's not cost effective to fire someone at the first sign of trouble.

All I'm saying is that in my experience, unions only serve to keep unproductive workers employed at the cost of the company, and at the cost of someone more productive who isn't working because the union is lifting up garbage.

 

[BIKES!]

Unions, protecting lazy, entitled and stupid workers since the dawn of time. Without unions, companies could become too efficient at production and meeting the demands of their customers... which apparently is an issue with the Dem Reich

 

[nostradumbass]

Does that include police unions?

 

[ElKarlo]

That's a failure of management to follow the process of terminating an unproductive employee. I managed union guys and was a union member prior to that. And this is a common misconceptions. I fired plenty of lazy dudes. You just have to follow the process. Coaching, improvement plan, feedback, warning, etc. Escalating to the point that they have to improve or be fired. It's a lengthy process that takes 3-4 months but it gives union employees a fair opportunity to fix the problem.

Unless you're talking about police unions. Police unions are the worst and give labor unions a bad name

Depends on the industry. Grocery the unions spent all their efforts making sure the older employees got all the benefits. While newer workers were PT and got nothing
Govt. oh man had people that literally did nothing and the union would step in and do the coaching and all that and make the process start all over. Couldn’t fire worthless people at all. Even if they were high and caused a wreck they were allowed a process. And that process was rehab and then allowed to keep their jobs

 

[Madmick]

That's a failure of management to follow the process of terminating an unproductive employee. I managed union guys and was a union member prior to that. And this is a common misconceptions. I fired plenty of lazy dudes. You just have to follow the process. Coaching, improvement plan, feedback, warning, etc. Escalating to the point that they have to improve or be fired. It's a lengthy process that takes 3-4 months but it gives union employees a fair opportunity to fix the problem.

Unless you're talking about police unions. Police unions are the worst and give labor unions a bad name

It's a failure inherent to the structure of unions: the idea itself.

The idea is to use the strength-in-numbers of laborers to counter the top-heavy ownership structure of the corporation. The problem is the union itself is predicated on the exact same pyramid structure with the bosses calling all the shots.

So ultimately you're trying to cure a disease with a disease.