Do you see fights like Esparza/Jedzrejczyk and Horiguchi/Gaudinot on PPV and think...

JonSnitchPhones said:
One extreme doesn't justify another. I didn't really argue for random ass heavyweights to be put on the main card of the ppv. That's for a different discussion. You can start another thread and maybe I'll chime in to back you up on that opinion.

Anyway, one thing I figured would happen in this discussion is people mainly projecting their own attitudes. I think empathy is a struggle for a lot of MMA fans for a variety of reasons. I won't argue that the UFC should put a bunch of women and flyweights on the ppv, if it benefits them overall financially. But just because they are doing it right now, that doesn't mean it's benefiting them. They are just doing it, while overall struggling financially and seemingly not changing much out of ego. They should be trying different things, based on the numbers, anecdotal evidence, as well as learning from other sports. One thing other athletic sports don't do is group women and men for the most obvious reason. This is the only one I can think of off hand that does.
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your empathy isn't very empathetic, if anything it's centered around your own opinions and generalizations.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
Gee, I'm now willing to pay more money to purchase this? Or instead do you think I'm actually now willing to pay less because it will detract from the experience instead of add to it like even a decent 135-265 lb bout would to at least a minor degree?

Maybe the better question is, what do you think an average prospective buyer's attitude is? Because that's what should matter to Zuffa as a business and on Sherdog I suppose you're dealing with a biased sample of fans, many of whom are trying to compete for the hardcore fan belt, so they won't say they dislike just about any fight. But the average fan in the ppv buying pool is probably not as hardcore or insecure. They just purchase what is of value to them and that's in the normal range.

As an offshoot to the first question, do you think women and flyweights on the whole benefit the UFC when mixed with normal-sized men and up?

I tend to think the UFC would benefit from disbanding the flyweight division altogether, as they aren't proven draws after all this time, bumping the better ones up to bw and putting extra weight on them like before to bolster the division (it could use it).

Also, I think they'd be helped if the women branched off to create WUFC, and people with that niche interest (ratings like TUF 20 indicate there is enough of one) could watch them for free on fs1 or fs2 in isolated form. Maybe the anomalies like Ronda could still co-main normal ppv's. But if her opponents and future Rondas need to be promoted alongside men previously to be featured on future ppv's, then all women's fights could go to fox sports, or they could have the occasional WUFC PPV.

Those are my current thoughts on the issue. I think the bigger issue of diluted cards/ppv's is a multi-layered one, but one of the factors actually is high-level niche category fights only a small percentage of the base care about.
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i think you and your partner should be able to get married and have a wedding cake.
done crying now?
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
Healthily was the operative word, and maintaining power while doing so the other component.
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I don't think 140-150 lbs is an 'unhealthy' weight for most men under 5'6 which are common in many places, and I'm not sure how much they would benefit by carrying unnecessary bulk for their frames...
 
fortheo said:
your empathy isn't very empathetic, if anything it's centered around your own opinions and generalizations.
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As you have a chick fighter in your avatar, or is that ironic?

Like I said, I'm all for the UFC keeping women and 125'ers around in a similar capacity if it's financially beneficial on the whole. That's the opposite of self-centered.

But they are losing a substantial amount of money, women and men are separated in basically every other sport for athletic reasons, and I don't think there are any fights in the 120's on the biggest boxing gates of all time list, but there are ones in the 130's I know. http://boxing.nv.gov/results/Top_Boxing_Gates/ So it's a logical general cut-off, not just for me.

Dismissing those facts as generalizations is Fox News-esque use of buzz words to shoot down opposition.
 
Ippwnage said:
i think you and your partner should be able to get married and have a wedding cake.
done crying now?
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I'd think gay men would be more apt to prefer watching women's sports, and come up with such an irrational response as yours. Not that there's anything wrong with your "lifestyle", honey.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
As you have a chick fighter in your avatar, or is that ironic?

Like I said, I'm all for the UFC keeping women and 125'ers around in a similar capacity if it's financially beneficial on the whole. That's the opposite of self-centered.

But they are losing a substantial amount of money, women and men are separated in basically every other sport for athletic reasons, and I don't think there are any fights in the 120's on the biggest boxing gates of all time list, but there are ones in the 130's I know. http://boxing.nv.gov/results/Top_Boxing_Gates/ So it's a logical general cut-off, not just for me.

Dismissing those facts as generalizations is Fox News-esque use of buzz words to shoot down opposition.
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Live gates would probably be better if the US had a world champion level fighter below 130lbs. Most guys have to go to Japan to make it big at those weights.
 
Let's be real, if DJ was 5'6", we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
I'd think gay men would be more apt to prefer watching women's sports, and come up with such an irrational response as yours. Not that there's anything wrong with your "lifestyle", honey.
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pretty sure that the gay ones like to see **** like you.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
I think he can be much better than top 20 at bw. At 20 years old, he was on his way to beating the aforementioned top 15 Bruce Leeroy, then he made a series of mental mistakes late to lose. I'm not really averse to him moving down to 125, because it's there, and may well be better for his career at this point. But this isn't about mini Pettis. The UFC's decisions on what to do with a division shouldn't be centered around him. That's a mistake they may have made with Ronda.



They could bring some of that dynamic to 135, while not having their talents diluted among a division that on the whole isn't very interesting. Cherry picking from 125 could spruce up interest in 135.
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How are their talents being diluted? lol. If anything having to face guys a lot bigger than them at 135 would be the definition of having their talents diluted.
 
Ippwnage said:
pretty sure that the gay ones like to see **** like you.
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In addition to having more effeminate tendencies, you also seem like you have the i.q. of a small child or a baboon. Congrats on learning how to turn on a computer. That was a big achievement for you.
 
Skydome said:
How are their talents being diluted? lol. If anything having to face guys a lot bigger than them at 135 would be the definition of having their talents diluted.
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Diluted among a much weaker, less marketable talent pool.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
Diluted among a much weaker, less marketable talent pool.
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I really don't think the 135 division is much more marketable as a whole. Like I said, fighting guys closer to their size(Serg, Cejudo, Horiguchi, just some examples) allows their talents to shine that much more. There is some tall lanky mofos at 135.

When you consider that a lot of flyweights walk anywhere between 135-150ish, I'd expect the division to keep growing at a pretty quick pace. That's not THAT small in a lot of countries, and for a lot of guys that are 5'6 and under, that's there most natural weight division in a sport where weight cutting is a huge priority.
 
top 10 flyweights and top 10 women's strawweights should never be lumped together as if they're even remotely equivalent.

Even if you're one of those guys who has no interest in anything but very large men fighting, even those guys know that they're not even remotely close to the same thing. You might have no interest in watching either one, but that's the only thing they have in common.

For me, personally, a top 10 flyweight fight is as good as a top 10 fight in any other division. Some top 10 flyweight fights are like "ok cool, good fight" and some are "HOLY SHIT can't wait" just like every division.

As far as women's fights go, I think they should all be in invicta except the title fights and the occasional especially compelling number one contender fight. Since the Esparza fight is for the title, I'm cool with it but it's not a compelling fight for me at this point. Ronda's the only female fighter I'm happy to see on a PPV.
 
JonSnitchPhones said:
In addition to having more effeminate tendencies, you also seem like you have the i.q. of a small child or a baboon. Congrats on learning how to turn on a computer. That was a big achievement for you.
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talking about little boys and baboons. you are running out of the closet totally flaming
 
There is no dilution issue, the product is better than ever from top to bottom, the only people who have stopped watching are those who are only interested in fights the calibre of Jones - Cormier , Pacquiao - Mayweatcher etc. For those who are interested in the martial arts, who get fascinated with the styles of fighters and constantly want to learn something new and keep up with how cagefighting is evolving are having the time of their lives with this many regions, competitors and styles clashing, the prelims are often just as entertaining as the maincard for such fans, so your problems are invented as far as I can see. You're wrong if you think those first examples are who they should be focusing on getting.
 
Skydome said:
I really don't think the 135 division is much more marketable as a whole. Like I said, fighting guys closer to their size(Serg, Cejudo, Horiguchi, just some examples) allows their talents to shine that much more. There is some tall lanky mofos at 135.

When you consider that a lot of flyweights walk anywhere between 135-150ish, I'd expect the division to keep growing at a pretty quick pace. That's not THAT small in a lot of countries, and for a lot of guys that are 5'6 and under, that's there most natural weight division in a sport where weight cutting is a huge priority
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I provided that list of the top 35 ppv buy rates for boxing over the years. It would have been arduous to go thru one by one, but I know there were ones on the list with main events at weights in the 130's, and I don't think any in the 120's. There were a lot straddling 135, 130 to 140.

Faber has almost 400k followers on Twitter. That's one of the higher numbers in the UFC. Cruz has 139k and got quite a reaction after his last fight. Barao had 79k as basically the interim champ. DJ is at 89k as a dominant, champ that has been active the last few years. Benavidez 77. I think those are the highest numbers. There does seem to be some difference by that measure in how much a star can shine between those weights. Dillashaw is pushing 60k. Give him time. He's new. I'm sure if he had 6 title fights and 10 more altogether, he'd fly passed DJ.

As far as walkarounds, I think that's an overrated standard of what division you should ply your trade in. You can only get so thin. If you're already thin, you don't have far to go. You're walking around particularly light already because of poverty, sickness, or more of an emphasis on fitness, your weight class in MMA hypothetically would be around that or not much lower. My normal weight was 165 (it's lower now due to health problems of my own). I maintained a weight generally where I'd be effective in sport because I was in athletics. So my weight class, hypothetically, would have been 145 or even 155. My cage weight would have been the same as my walkaround. I think the standard for what weight class you should choose is the one you can get down to without taxing your body from lack of fat, nutrients, etc. Because you're going to have your slovenly food addicts between fights like Hendricks and your health conscious juice bar operators like Franklin.

BTW, I appreciate the civil discussion, and I was going to get to your initial post in the thread, but it provided more of an in depth response, and I'm having to counter a bunch of different people, so maybe I'll start a thread about all the reasons for the UFC decline in the coming days, and we can get into that. Like I said I think that's a complex issue, and this is only part of it, even if there are bigger problems. That doesn't mean this one shouldn't be addressed.
 
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