Do you know any inept BJJ black or brown belts?

[AnotherOldGuy]

Of course not but I find it hard to believe that most BJJ black belts have high minimal standard.

Look at Rigan Machado competing in Judo competitions in the US. Some of those guys, who probably had black belts for years and competed, look incredibly mediocre even in the stand-up

I'm sure there are weak nations in BJJ where the black belts are equally underwhelming

When Kano started judo, black belt meant you were ready to be a student. That's why Kano (he was a prof at the University of Tokyo) made ten degrees of black belt. Shodan was like being in grade one -- you had a decent breakfall, and knew the basics of moving and throwing. Before that (the kyu ranks) you're in kindergarten, just learning what you need so you can do randori without hurting yourself or your partners.

Expert rank in judo started with the Kokaku belts (the alternating red and white panel belts for formal wear that you get with 6th degree). Again, this makes sense - if you have ten degrees of black belt, you'd expect expert to be closer to the highest rank than the lowest rank.

Somehow, when judo was taken to South and North America, people started to think black belt in judo in meant "expert" instead of "First student grade". That's never made any sense -- why in the world would you have ten degrees of "expert"?

Beyond that, low judo ranks (ie anything below 6th degree black belt) are given for different things. You can get them for coaching, for teaching, for refereeing, and for just being helpful around the club. Again, that makes sense if black belt only means expert at 6th degree. Of course, it takes a lot longer to get promotions in judo if you're not a competitor, and you'll never get to expert rank without competing, but you can become a real if beginning student (ie black belt) without competing.

Since Kano's day, what's more or less happened is that in judo black belt still means knowing the basics, but people have stopped worrying about belts beyond that (at least most judoka). I suspect eventually judo will just drop belt ranks (they serve very little purpose in practice), and like sambo just use them to keep your gi in place.

Even now, if you want to know if someone is good in judo you don't ask (or care) about their rank, you ask at what level they competed. In club or regional tournaments? Probably pretty limited. At the Olympics? Okay, they're definitely good at judo. Belt rank adds nothing to that.

BJJ uses a different belt system (other than the colors, which are naturally similar -- how many colors are there?) In BJJ black belt means expert. That's fine, belt colors and ranks are arbitrary, and every style can make their own. You could start a style where only world champions got black belt. Or a style where you started with black belt and then were given a white belt when you became an expert.

 

[mataleaos]

I would argue that the quality control of wrestling is higher than BJJ. Wrestling has more natural selection process going on.

You aren't wrong but there also aren't many casual wrestlers right? Most wrestlers get involved at a young age with an understanding that they will compete a lot. Most wrestlers compete more in one season than many active BJJ guys do in a year.

BJJ is still the only physical hobby I've ever come across where hobbyists and casuals are held to such a high performance standard day in and day out once they reach the upper belts. I'm just saying that BJJ attracts a hell of a lot of casual practitioners than wrestling does. And these same casual practitioners will eventually (usually when they have full-time careers and families) be held to strong performance standards every time they step on the mat.

 

[lechien]

I have met my share of them.
Most of them are fraudsters and other went down the remote affiliated system.

 

[Kforcer]

I have met guys who are now blackbelts and instructors who were not very good when I rolled with them and I have heard people say that they haven't really improved in any substantial way, but since I haven't actually rolled with the people in question it is all speculation.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

You aren't wrong but there also aren't many casual wrestlers right? Most wrestlers get involved at a young age with an understanding that they will compete a lot. Most wrestlers compete more in one season than many active BJJ guys do in a year.

BJJ is still the only physical hobby I've ever come across where hobbyists and casuals are held to such a high performance standard day in and day out once they reach the upper belts. I'm just saying that BJJ attracts a hell of a lot of casual practitioners than wrestling does. And these same casual practitioners will eventually (usually when they have full-time careers and families) be held to strong performance standards every time they step on the mat.

You're right about the lack of casual wrestlers. And in fact most of those of us who wrestled seriously in our youth (high school and college) stop wrestling when we graduate and never do it again.

There are a few other sports with a similar high standard. Judo and sambo of course, and for the same reason as BJJ. But also sports like swimming (poor swimmers drown, reducing the number of those who can't do it competently), skiiing (again, if you're not good enough to keep on your feet you'll either break something, or most likely quit), white-water kayaking ... sports where if you don't do it correctly bad things happen. In a sense that's what's going on with BJJ as well -- if you don't do it well enough you spend all your time tapping, and most quit at that point.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

You just compared one of the grestest bjj guys to an avg black belt? Also they trained sambo with bob anderson before they competed.

Also iirc rigan did alot of flying submissions and specifically trained them for sambo competition.

Its a horrible example.

ironically, I've heard Rigan has given a large amount of questionable belts.

So if Royce could have escaped that, why did he not ask for another grappling match?

Not to mention he took off his gi top for the rematch lol

 

[Judochopatemi]

I would also argue that BJJ is more strength dependent than Judo. Judo throws aren't supposed to be brute force and grip strength has very little to do with whether you pull a throw off in Judo

 

[Judochopatemi]

ironically, I've heard Rigan has given a large amount of questionable belts.

l

Joe Rogan?

 

[mataleaos]

I would also argue that BJJ is more strength dependent than Judo. Judo throws aren't supposed to be brute force and grip strength has very little to do with whether you pull a throw off in Judo

I agree with the last part but in general don’t you think judo players are usually better athletes in the traditional sense than bjj players?

 

[Judochopatemi]

Put it like this, I wouldn't say that someone who knows the full spectrum of BJJ is a worse athlete.

There are some highly advanced moves in BJJ groundgame that takes more athleticism than the precision and coordination of Judo throws.

 

[Judochopatemi]

They even had a banner on a BJJ website:

Please don't use your strength as a means of stalling in the learning process.

You don't need that banner in Judo because strength alone won't take you anywhere.

 

[Pierced7681]

I’ve seen fast promotions because the person owns a gym and has paid for an affiliation, generally when this happens they won’t roll much and just teach technique.

 

[Gandhi]

Belts motivate but they can mean so many different things. I feel I was sharper as a senior blue belt when I came back after a long time off and was only 1.5 years back in compared to now when I m a senior purple but 50 and out of it due to lock down. I bet if I came back I would be brown in under 6 months but I certainly don't think I would be worthy of it. If u really feel the need to properly rate everyone try the boyed belt system (1 belt per 10 lbs and and 10 years).

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I would also argue that BJJ is more strength dependent than Judo. Judo throws aren't supposed to be brute force and grip strength has very little to do with whether you pull a throw off in Judo

In practice, against a good opponent, judo takes a lot of strength, and grip strength is vital. There's a reason every serious competitive judoka does weight training. Or in fact, why there are weight divisions to begin with -- if strength didn't matter then there'd be no reason for weight divisions.

I have no idea if BJJ or judo requires more strength, but my experience with judo and wrestling is that judo requires more strength than wrestling, and wrestling requires more agility and explosiveness than judo. The reason for this is the gi -- it gives exceptionally strong handles through which you can apply your strength, and negate your opponents movements. That in fact is why grip fighting was so vital in judo (especially before the recent changes) -- you simply couldn't allow a good opponent to get their favorite grip on you, as you were likely to go for a ride if they did.

The lack of gi in wrestling means strength isn't as important, but agility and explosiveness are more important -- you can't be tied down the same way, but neither can your opponent.

And of course I mean relative to each other -- both judo and wrestling (at high levels) require a lot of strength, agility and explosiveness.

 

[Judochopatemi]

In practice, against a good opponent, judo takes a lot of strength, and grip strength is vital. There's a reason every serious competitive judoka does weight training. Or in fact, why there are weight divisions to begin with -- if strength didn't matter then there'd be no reason for weight divisions.

I have no idea if BJJ or judo requires more strength, but my experience with judo and wrestling is that judo requires more strength than wrestling, and wrestling requires more agility and explosiveness than judo. The reason for this is the gi -- it gives exceptionally strong handles through which you can apply your strength, and negate your opponents movements. That in fact is why grip fighting was so vital in judo (especially before the recent changes) -- you simply couldn't allow a good opponent to get their favorite grip on you, as you were likely to go for a ride if they did.

The lack of gi in wrestling means strength isn't as important, but agility and explosiveness are more important -- you can't be tied down the same way, but neither can your opponent.

And of course I mean relative to each other -- both judo and wrestling (at high levels) require a lot of strength, agility and explosiveness.

You do know that Judo allowed gripping the body in the old days? But anyway, gripping someones body is more strength dependent than the GI

 

[Kforcer]

The reason for this is the gi -- it gives exceptionally strong handles through which you can apply your strength, and negate your opponents movements.

Good point. I've always been strong and when I did judo for a little bit, it was a big change training no-gi, even though I'd had a wrestling background. It seemed so much more difficult to impose my strength. That was actually a big reason I decided to stay away from the gi; no-gi was what I wanted to do mostly, and I wanted to make sure I didn't get to used to those handles.

 

[Judochopatemi]

It seemed so much more difficult to impose my strength.

That's not in favor of his point, but mine. Judo is LESS strength dependent.

 

[Kforcer]

That's not in favor of his point, but mine. Judo is LESS strength dependent.

No, I'm saying I felt it was easier to impose my strength in judo and harder to do so in no-gi, especially when I'd become acclimated to judo.

 

[Judochopatemi]

No, I'm saying I felt it was easier to impose my strength in judo and harder to do so in no-gi, especially when I'd become acclimated to judo.

How about GI-BJJ compared to Judo?

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

You do know that Judo allowed gripping the body in the old days? But anyway, gripping someones body is more strength dependent than the GI

You can still grip the body in judo. Its uncommon because you have far less control with hand on body than on the gi, because its easier for your hand to slip off. Its like the difference between say dead lifting say a 300 pound boulder and a 300 pound barbell -- the barbell is easier because the grip is far more secure.

This slipperiness effect becomes even stronger in wrestling, where your opponent's body is going be sweaty and slippery. You simply can't get a secure grip comparable to what you get on a gi. And in fact, even body control is easier in judo because of the gi's -- there's more friction between gi's than between sweaty singlets and skin. In wrestling control for takedowns is largely through forward movement rather than from pulling because of this -- and that means explosiveness (ie getting momentum quickly) is more important than strength (you simply can't control slippery limbs and torso's the same way as gi-clad ones).

But the main difference in strength between judo and wrestling is in grip fighting. I don't know what level you've competed at, but at national level and higher gripping is vital. If you get your grip you can control and limit your opponent's body before any throw has happened in a way that simply isn't possible in wrestling (again, limbs and bodies are too slippery to apply that kind of strength against). Controlling sleeves, collars all involve a lot of strength at high levels -- again, that's why every high level competitive judoka in the world does weight training. Mifune's ideal of two finger guiding into throws is great for kata's, but simply doesn't work against top level competitors.

And again, I'll point out that both judo and wrestling at high levels (my experience is limited to competing nationally in judo and in college in wrestling, but I've talked to many Olympians in both) require great strength, agility and explosiveness. But in judo strength is relatively more important and explosiveness relatively less important than in wrestling. And that's 100% because of the gi.

And I should add I'm mainly talking about throws and takedowns here, not ground work. Neither strength nor explosiveness are as important on the ground, because gravity and the earth limit mobility and speed -- the defender can concentrate effort on immobilizing their opponent's limbs without having to worry as much about leaving other things exposed (ie ground work tends to be much slower). In fact, I suspect the gi makes it easier to defend on the ground because you can tie up a sleeved limb (whereas doing the same thing standing is going to get you thrown when your opponent quickly changes the attack).