Do you feel the UFC is a disgrace from the perspective or view of kickboxing fans?

look what happen in Conor V Khabib fight is rare occasion in mma, and yes, something to that level has happened in other combat sports or sports in general.



most combat sports also are for entertainment and make athlete and promoter bunch of money and that doesn't have to be a bad thing, as long as the spirit of martial arts are still there.

and I think its good that we see more cross training and martial are becoming more accessible, i don't see a good reason why we want to go back to the days when martial arts "stick to their own".


Showing me footage of things happening in boxing only reinforces my statement. There is generally a difference in behavior in fight sports (boxing, mma, kickboxing, etc) as opposed to martial arts (muay thai, karate, wushu, etc.) be it trash talk, violence outside of the actual fight from the fighters, etc.

My point is that real martial arts aren't just a fight sport, there is more to it. It's a shame that you fail to realize that or decide to just ignore it.

I never said that cross training or martial arts being more available are bad things.
 
Showing me footage of things happening in boxing only reinforces my statement. There is generally a difference in behavior in fight sports (boxing, mma, kickboxing, etc) as opposed to martial arts (muay thai, karate, wushu, etc.) be it trash talk, violence outside of the actual fight from the fighters, etc.

My point is that real martial arts aren't just a fight sport, there is more to it. It's a shame that you fail to realize that or decide to just ignore it.

I never said that cross training or martial arts being more available are bad things.

again i don't see how MMA/Boxing/Kickboxing are inherently more "violence" or less 'honorable" than other combat sports/ martial arts.

trash talk and all that stuff are caused by fighters or promotion, it has nothing to do with sports/martial arts itself.

now if say that the promoter in sports such as Boxing/Kickboxing/MMA created the culture that promote trash talking and bad behaviour, i probably would agree with you.

also, i never said martial art are only fight sports, there are many martial arts that focuses on self defense/art/self improvement, and i respect and admire all of them.

MMA is basically the result of each different martial art cross training and competing with each other.
 
again i don't see how MMA/Boxing/Kickboxing are inherently more "violence" or less 'honorable" than other combat sports/ martial arts.

trash talk and all that stuff are caused by fighters or promotion, it has nothing to do with sports/martial arts itself.

now if say that the promoter in sports such as Boxing/Kickboxing/MMA created the culture that promote trash talking and bad behaviour, i probably would agree with you.

also, i never said martial art are only fight sports, there are many martial arts that focuses on self defense/art/self improvement, and i respect and admire all of them.

MMA is basically the result of each different martial art cross training and competing with each other.

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I am not saying the sport itself is more violent or less honorable. I am saying the mentality and culture around it is different. The focus on respect, tradition and ritual is a lot stronger in martial arts than it is in combat/fight sports like MMA and Boxing where the only goal is to fight and make money and where there is not necessarily that much emphasis on teaching and learning respect. This clearly comes across when you see the attitude of a lot of fighters before and after their fights, sometimes even during.

Trash talk and violent acts are caused by the fighters as you say, and those fighters represent the sport they are in. The attitude you see from them outside of the ring when trash talking, attacking buses, attacking the opponent's coaches, attacking the referee, not letting go of chokes, striking the opponent too many times when they're already out, and so on are all actions by the fighters which are associated to the sport they represent.

We are not just talking isolated cases either, they are literally long youtube videos of many different clips showing MMA fighters or boxers attacking referees, or starting brawls at press conferences and sport events, and so on.

Now I challenge you to find the same type of content from Stadium Muay Thai, a combat sport (AND martial art) which has existed for much longer than MMA and has more fights per week than the UFC does in a month. It is also a professional combat sport with paid athletes, promoters, etc.

You missed my point about martial arts having more than "fighting". What I meant by that is not the other physical elements of the training like self-defence and so on but the moral values and discipline that goes with it - something I've not seen being focused on when going to Boxing or MMA gyms. It's a different mindset with different objectives in mind.

And of course the fact that the promoters and the culture encourage fighters to trash talk and act badly to get viewers excited for the fights definitely doesn't help either.

MMA is just a fight sport with quite an open ruleset. It's not the be it all of martial arts like you seem to make it sound.
 
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I am not saying the sport itself is more violent or less honorable. I am saying the mentality and culture around it is different. The focus on respect, tradition and ritual is a lot stronger in martial arts than it is in combat/fight sports like MMA and Boxing where the only goal is to fight and make money and where there is not necessarily that much emphasis on teaching and learning respect. This clearly comes across when you see the attitude of a lot of fighters before and after their fights, sometimes even during.

Trash talk and violent acts are caused by the fighters as you say, and those fighters represent the sport they are in. The attitude you see from them outside of the ring when trash talking, attacking buses, attacking the opponent's coaches, attacking the referee, not letting go of chokes, striking the opponent too many times when they're already out, and so on are all actions by the fighters which are associated to the sport they represent.

We are not just talking isolated cases either, they are literally long youtube videos of many different clips showing MMA fighters or boxers attacking referees, or starting brawls at press conferences and sport events, and so on.

Now I challenge you to find the same type of content from Stadium Muay Thai, a combat sport (AND martial art) which has existed for much longer than MMA and has more fights per week than the UFC does in a month. It is also a professional combat sport with paid athletes, promoters, etc.

You missed my point about martial arts having more than "fighting". What I meant by that is not the other physical elements of the training like self-defence and so on but the moral values and discipline that goes with it - something I've not seen being focused on when going to Boxing or MMA gyms. It's a different mindset with different objectives in mind.

And of course the fact that the promoters and the culture encourage fighters to trash talk and act badly to get viewers excited for the fights definitely doesn't help either.

MMA is just a fight sport with quite an open ruleset. It's not the be it all of martial arts like you seem to make it sound.


again, im not disputing that there are more trash talking and brawl in sports such as Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA, but that has nothing to do with the sports.

if you put Dana White or someone with his business model in Muay Thai and put more American athlete, you probably get the same result.

I don't see how you can say that MMA/Kickboxing/Boxing is naturally more "violence" than Muay Thai, that just doesn't make any sense and if you don't disagree, then i don't think we have that much disagreement.

all those non physicall element of martial art does exist to a large extent in MMA, it lives in athlete such as JDS, Demetrious Johson, GSP, Fedor and Machida.

and its exist in Boxing/Kickboxing too.

and MMA is the place where all of the aspect of martial art (striking, ground fighting, takedown and clinch) are allowed, although many martial arts has technique that is not allowed in MMA.
 
again, im not disputing that there are more trash talking and brawl in sports such as Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA, but that has nothing to do with the sports.

if you put Dana White or someone with his business model in Muay Thai and put more American athlete, you probably get the same result.

I don't see how you can say that MMA/Kickboxing/Boxing is naturally more "violence" than Muay Thai, that just doesn't make any sense and if you don't disagree, then i don't think we have that much disagreement.

all those non physicall element of martial art does exist to a large extent in MMA, it lives in athlete such as JDS, Demetrious Johson, GSP, Fedor and Machida.

and its exist in Boxing/Kickboxing too.

and MMA is the place where all of the aspect of martial art (striking, ground fighting, takedown and clinch) are allowed, although many martial arts has technique that is not allowed in MMA.

We're going in circles. You're twisting my words instead of looking at what I'm actually saying.

Even though you admit "im not disputing that there are more trash talking and brawl in sports such as Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA". So you do agree with what I'm saying.
I'm talking about professional athletes within those sports and how they behave. They are directly associated with the sport, just like Cycling is associated with PED's because of its athletes.

You say: "I don't see how you can say that MMA/Kickboxing/Boxing is naturally more "violence" than Muay Thai"
And I respond again with the same thing: I challenge you to find the same type of footage from Stadium Muay Thai. You just won't find it. Why? Because of the culture surrounding it and the values of the martial art itself.

And Dana White is not the reason there's trash talking and violence in Boxing and MMA.

Also, it's funny that out of the 5 athletes you listed, 2 of those (GSP and Machida) are exactly the type of people who have learnt values from martial arts and more specifically Karate in this case and still apply those values to their MMA careers today. You can't exactly use those examples to try and convince me that there are values in MMA. Those who actually behave like them are not within the majority in MMA.

We really are going in circles here, so I'm gonna leave it here.
 
We're going in circles. You're twisting my words instead of looking at what I'm actually saying.

Even though you admit "im not disputing that there are more trash talking and brawl in sports such as Boxing, Kickboxing and MMA". So you do agree with what I'm saying.
I'm talking about professional athletes within those sports and how they behave. They are directly associated with the sport, just like Cycling is associated with PED's because of its athletes.

You say: "I don't see how you can say that MMA/Kickboxing/Boxing is naturally more "violence" than Muay Thai"
And I respond again with the same thing: I challenge you to find the same type of footage from Stadium Muay Thai. You just won't find it. Why? Because of the culture surrounding it and the values of the martial art itself.

And Dana White is not the reason there's trash talking and violence in Boxing and MMA.

Also, it's funny that out of the 5 athletes you listed, 2 of those (GSP and Machida) are exactly the type of people who have learnt values from martial arts and more specifically Karate in this case and still apply those values to their MMA careers today. You can't exactly use those examples to try and convince me that there are values in MMA. Those who actually behave like them are not within the majority in MMA.

We really are going in circles here, so I'm gonna leave it here.

we are going in circles because you refuse to seperate the sports itself and the current culture surrouding it.

take your cycling example, lets just say for the sake of the argument there are way more athlete in cycling who use PED than lets say sports like Dart or Soccer, you would not automitically assume that cycling is naturally have more cheaters, you would not say that the sports cause athlete to cheat.

MMA can be run like Muay Thai or Karete and vice versa (although it will be a lot less fun, since we enjoyed mild trash talking and good story line), Also i think all combat sports shared the same spirit of spormanship and respect in them, MMA got it from Judo, BJJ and etc, Boxing are once called the gentleman sport.

also what happen post UFC 229 is very rare, UFC has done more than 300 events, and there is probably only 7 incident like this.

with that i rest my case.
 
take your cycling example, lets just say for the sake of the argument there are way more athlete in cycling who use PED than lets say sports like Dart or Soccer, you would not automitically assume that cycling is naturally have more cheaters, you would not say that the sports cause athlete to cheat.

And this is where you're just playing with words. If by "the sport" you mean the concept and the rules of the sport then no the concept and the rules of the sport don't make people cheat or trash talk or be violent to one another outside of the contest, however if by "sport" as a broader term we mean the sport and its culture and the people involved in it then yes.

My initial point was "There are no moral values attached to MMA like you'd have in Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Muay Thai etc."

There is nothing wrong about that statement and you know it.
 
Stadium Muay Thai is full of gamblers and fighters are poisoned periodically and children are taking head trauma at early ages. Most of the fighters end up broken and broke. Let's not act like it's all sunshine and roses...
 
Martial artist really show great respect for one another. You can tell because they're constantly bowing and speaking Japanese.
 
Stadium Muay Thai is full of gamblers and fighters are poisoned periodically and children are taking head trauma at early ages. Most of the fighters end up broken and broke. Let's not act like it's all sunshine and roses...

Definitely not all sunshine and roses but those are other issues linked to gambling and poverty, not because the fighters go lose.
 
UFC became trash in the last few years but it accelerated recently imo.
 
UFC became trash in the last few years but it accelerated recently imo.

The fights themselves or the stuff outside of them? I think the fights have remained consistently good, but the promotional stuff has been pretty bad imo
 
The fights themselves or the stuff outside of them? I think the fights have remained consistently good, but the promotional stuff has been pretty bad imo

The talent pool is still very good but the matchmaking is not about merit but about hype and money.

Most ufc consumers are trash and the promotion is aimed at these people.
 
It is, but that's no different in kickboxing, Muay Thai and boxing. Pretty similar crowd in most countries.

I'd tend to disagree actually. Boxing and MMA are a lot more mainstream and therefore watched by a lot more thugs. Kickboxing is quite similar in that sense but you also have quite a lot more educated fans. Then MT tends to have either gamblers or knowledgeable people (and some tourists in the stadiums).

I mean I've been to UFC events, Kickboxing events, and Muay Thai events. And it's just not the same crowd.
 
The reality is there is just good and shitty people in general and crowds vary from location to location. This is kind of a stupid debate to be having...
 
The reality is that marketing choices are designed to appeal to certain crowds and the UFC knows that, which is why the empire of MMA is what it is.
Have you wondered the reason for the cage? The loud music? The distasteful marketing campaigns, starting from the way fights are promoted, through the way they are displayed and actually fought, often ending with verbal and physical attacks against officials and teams.

The truth is that the UFC has to appeal to a barbaric crowd, mostly the American one; unfortunately, as with everything else, what was yesterday in the US becomes today's trend in the rest of the world. It surprises me that more intelligent people cannot see through this.
As a MT practitioner I despise how every aspect of MMA and boxing is sneakily aimed at replicating a street-fight: from the stare-downs at the weigh-ins, to the cage with people being punched on the head once they are defeated on the ground, to the gregarious, consummeristic, blood-thirsty crowd.
 
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