Do you consider Phelps the GOAT Olympian?

Is Phelps the Olympic GOAT


  • Total voters
    78
Worth a mention

karelin-246x300.png

I was actually just about to post Karelin.

Years and years ago, I made a thread comparing Karelin and Phelps, on an International and Olympic level. The comparison I made then was that Phelps would have needed to win every race for a decade by at least a second to equivocate Karelin's dominance in wrestling, even if he has more medals (because swimming has like 50 million events).

In 2016, now seeing how Phelps' career has gone, i'll still take the Russian all day.

 
I was actually just about to post Karelin.

Years and years ago, I made a thread comparing Karelin and Phelps, on an International and Olympic level. The comparison I made then was that Phelps would have needed to win every race for a decade by at least a second to equivocate Karelin's dominance in wrestling, even if he has more medals (because swimming has like 50 million events).

In 2016, now seeing how Phelps' career has gone, i'll still take the Russian all day.

@PolishHeadlock

To put Karelin's greatness in context, some of his opponents wouldn't even wrestle him out of fear of being dropped on their head. I think he won one WC by default as his opponent didn't want to wrestle for the gold because the previous time they wrestled he was almost paralyzed by Karelin.

I don't think Phelps has ever made a final and had the other competitors not even bother to show up on the starting blocks.
 
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People are taking him for granted now and underrating what he's done this year. The story line before the games started was can he win any golds? Now hes having a dominant games and people just assume its par for the course not him being a clutch beast.
 
no, he is not the greatest olympian. swimming just benefits from having a gazillion events. imagine if in track and field Usain Bolt also could compete in 100m with one hand behind his back, with one hand on his chest, with the other hand on his chests, etc. fuck, he'd get like 7 golds each Olympics and he'd also have tens of medals.

For me it's Karelin.
 
no, he is not the greatest olympian. swimming just benefits from having a gazillion events. imagine if in track and field Usain Bolt also could compete in 100m with one hand behind his back, with one hand on his chest, with the other hand on his chests, etc. fuck, he'd get like 7 golds each Olympics and he'd also have tens of medals
Such a shitty argument being iterated and reiterated here.
 
Oh, another name that should be mentioned played tonight.

Kerry Walsh-Jennings. She's not quite Karelin, but damn close. She's only lost 2 sets in Olympic history, but she's never lost a match.

Last year she became the first woman in history to reach the Long Beach Finals playing with one hand (her right hand, which is her dominant hand that was badly injured, so she played with her left hand, and she even had to serve underhand).

Pretty much all the coaches at Long Beach Poly during her stay, the top sporting high school in the United States, have said she is hands down the greatest female athlete they've ever seen. Apparently she dominated their division in basketball in a similar manner to which Lisa Leslie dominated at Morningside when she played high school ball.
 
not sure, so many medals in swimming. and it seems in most countries you can't make a decent living with swimming so the competition is weaker

he's top 3 for sure though
 
i've yet to see a rebuke to that argument worth a fuck.

Track has a ton as well. Just nobody is a freak in track like Phelps is in the pool.

100m
200m
400m
800m

Hurdles
110m
400m

Relay
4x100
4x400

Even without adding long or triple jump that's a lot of opportunity for medals.

Why is that line up that much different than what Phelps has done? Because nobody has been able to do anything like it? As pointed out by Mick and others only 4 people in history have won gold in 2 different styled individual events.

Some of you guys act like what Phelps does is easy compared to runners. Just look at other events in swimming. Just because some are good in a 50m doesn't mean those same people are good at 100, 200, 400, etc. If you watched swimming this Olympics even some gold medalists in the 100m events got torched in the 200m events of the same stroke. Most of the swimmers have a specific style and distance(s)(usually only a couple) they train for. Phelps is just a different animal. Does he have an advantage with the amount of events. Sure I give a slight advantage but track isn't far behind, it's just that there aren't multi event/distance specialists in track like what Phelps does in swimming.
 
i've yet to see a rebuke to that argument worth a fuck.
Perhaps you wouldn't spot a fuck worth giving? I already pointed out the massive crossover in Track & Field.

100m, 200m, 400m, 800m all take place in a time window from 10-100 seconds. Go dominate that shit, Usain!
Long Jump, Triple Jump, 110m Hurdles, 400m Hurdles. Go dominate that shit, Usain!

Crossover abounds in T&F, too, not just as it pertains to Bolt.
  • Why don't 10K runners and Marathoners also compete in the 20K Racewalk & 50K Racewalk?
  • Same goes for the Mile/1500m runners and the 5K runners with the 3K Steeple Chase.
  • Long Jump and Triple Jump are the exact same skills in different repetition.
  • It's my understanding that speed is the prime factor determining success in the Pole Vault. Vertical leaping ability and upper body strength play a much larger role in maintaining the vault, but hey, it's just a different "skill". Why can't Usain go dominate that shit?
  • The Hammer isn't so incredibly different in weight that it is totally clear to my why the larger hammer athletes couldn't adapt and succeed as spinning stylists in the Shot Put, or the smaller and faster in the Discus Throw.
What if they add the 60m? Do you even think he could win that, the 100m, and 200m in the same year? More than once? What if it was more relevant to all the ball sports around the world and it was the 40yd dash? No crying about the 36-second mark with this one.

Pretty sure if you tallied it up there would be just as many "cross-sport" medalists. Oh, and Phelps is from one of the most pristine programs in the world. Meanwhile, Usain Bolt's relay gold in Beijing already appears doomed thanks to doper Nesta Carter's failed Plan B. This is one of four teammates Usain ran with in the Finals in Beijing and London:
  1. Nesta Carter (doper)
  2. Asafa Powell (doper)
  3. Michael Frater
  4. Yohan Blake (doper)
Meanwhile, his country's entire Track & Field program got busted for holding a single out-of-competition test of its athletes leading in the London Olympics. Naturally, as soon as WADA investigated, the cards started to fall. That's when we realized their 2008 run was bullshit.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/24900565
While Track & Field's World Championship competitions are believed to be the dirtiest in all of sport outside possibly Weightlifting, populated by probably around 60% of the athletes doping, it's clear that there's a unique apathy in Jamaica, and an acceptance of doping as the culture of their national program. They've protected Bolt, but that dark cloud hangs over his head. This is just the state of normal in Kingston, now.
 
It's impossible to quantify. He's the greatest swimmer. That's all you can say.
 
Perhaps you wouldn't spot a fuck worth giving? I already pointed out the massive crossover in Track & Field.

100m, 200m, 400m, 800m all take place in a time window from 10-100 seconds. Go dominate that shit, Usain!
Long Jump, Triple Jump, 110m Hurdles, 400m Hurdles. Go dominate that shit, Usain!

Crossover abounds in T&F, too, not just as it pertains to Bolt.
  • Why don't 10K runners and Marathoners also compete in the 20K Racewalk & 50K Racewalk?
  • Same goes for the Mile/1500m runners and the 5K runners with the 3K Steeple Chase.
  • Long Jump and Triple Jump are the exact same skills in different repetition.
  • It's my understanding that speed is the prime factor determining success in the Pole Vault. Vertical leaping ability and upper body strength play a much larger role in maintaining the vault, but hey, it's just a different "skill". Why can't Usain go dominate that shit?
  • The Hammer isn't so incredibly different in weight that it is totally clear to my why the larger hammer athletes couldn't adapt and succeed as spinning stylists in the Shot Put, or the smaller and faster in the Discus Throw.
What if they add the 60m? Do you even think he could win that, the 100m, and 200m in the same year? More than once? What if it was more relevant to all the ball sports around the world and it was the 40yd dash? No crying about the 36-second mark with this one.

Pretty sure if you tallied it up there would be just as many "cross-sport" medalists. Oh, and Phelps is from one of the most pristine programs in the world. Meanwhile, Usain Bolt's relay gold in Beijing already appears doomed thanks to doper Nesta Carter's failed Plan B. This is one of four teammates Usain ran with in the Finals in Beijing and London:
  1. Nesta Carter (doper)
  2. Asafa Powell (doper)
  3. Michael Frater
  4. Yohan Blake (doper)
Meanwhile, his country's entire Track & Field program got busted for holding a single out-of-competition test of its athletes leading in the London Olympics. Naturally, as soon as WADA investigated, the cards started to fall. That's when we realized their 2008 run was bullshit.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/24900565
While Track & Field's World Championship competitions are believed to be the dirtiest in all of sport outside possibly Weightlifting, populated by probably around 60% of the athletes doping, it's clear that there's a unique apathy in Jamaica, and an acceptance of doping as the culture of their national program. They've protected Bolt, but that dark cloud hangs over his head. This is just the state of normal in Kingston, now.

thanks for the long response. it was a pretty good breakdown. however, if you look at Phelps' Olympic medals, only two of them came from 400. the rest are just variations of 100 and 200. so 25 of his medals came from swimming within 100 meters, in different styles.

most of the stuff you presented are different sports altogether, so one can't really say what would bolt do in long jump for example, maybe he would also medal there, who knows. or maybe he would completely suck. what we are talking here is different mechanics altogether.

phelps is definitely, by far, the best swimmer. but best Olympian? well, he is in the top 5 for sure, but the large number of medals is something that is characteristic for the swimming events, it has always been. it shouldn't be the only factor.
 
thanks for the long response. it was a pretty good breakdown. however, if you look at Phelps' Olympic medals, only two of them came from 400. the rest are just variations of 100 and 200. so 25 of his medals came from swimming within 100 meters, in different styles.
Do you honestly think this is a counterpoint? You only confirm his dominance. He achieved these wins in the same Olympics that he achieved the rest. He was also more dominant in the 400 distance than at any other distance.

Wiki doesn't spare your ignorance. Wanna take a guess why he doesn't have more 400m races? Because the 400m Butterfly doesn't exist.

He would have gladly gobbled up more medals in the 400m Freestyle, too, but that would have added another 1200m to his 8-day workload, and since he had to bust his ass to increase his muscle mass and turnover for the 100m sprinting events so that he could help dominate the relays, it made no sense to spread himself that much more thin and dominate that event, too. Nobody in the swimming world questions he would have. Why do you think he was tuning up the all-time great Ian Thorpe in international competition from 2005-2007 in the 200m Free? Thorpe was retroactively proven a doper, btw, but still lost to Phelps during this part of his prime, and many believe Thorpe retired prematurely (shocking the swim world) because he couldn't hack it living in Phelp's shadow. Phelps smashed every 400m HoFer of his era in the 200m Free: Thorpe, Biedermann, Tae-Hwan, Hackett, Vanderkaay, Keller.

The 100m isn't his specialty...you didn't understand that, obviously, with this post, but now you do.
most of the stuff you presented are different sports altogether, so one can't really say what would bolt do in long jump for example, maybe he would also medal there, who knows. or maybe he would completely suck. what we are talking here is different mechanics altogether.

phelps is definitely, by far, the best swimmer. but best Olympian? well, he is in the top 5 for sure, but the large number of medals is something that is characteristic for the swimming events, it has always been. it shouldn't be the only factor.
"Different sports altogether"? You mean like..."different strokes"? What's the great difference. Because they take place on land?

When you sprint you run. Add a hurdle and you're just hopping over it while you run.
When you compete in hammer, discus, or shot put, you're just spinning around and throwing a weighted object. The great difference between those tasks involves the weight of the implement being thrown.
When you run a marathon, both feet aren't always touching at the same time, but you're upright, moving one leg in front of the other, for very long distances. How is racewalking this unobtainable skill of stark difference? What about the Steeple Chase makes it so insanely discrete from the 5K or Mile?
When you run and jump your speed is your greatest asset to your leap. The leaping takes more precedence, but it's the same with the triple jump. So many of these events are rooted in supremacy of speed in the horizontal plane.

You simply have conditioned your mind in a confirmation bias (possible due to your ignorance of swimming which is still a relatively esoteric sport) to believe these things are so grossly different.
 
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  • Why don't 10K runners and Marathoners also compete in the 20K Racewalk & 50K Racewalk?



  • Because running involves an orthopaedic limit that doesn't allow elite athletes to run more than 2-2.5hrs/day.

    Swimming is like XC skiing -- there isn't an orthopaedic limit and you can spend 6hrs/day (or more) training for different disciplines. A XC skier could race 5km, classic/freestyle, the sprint and the 50k free.




    1. Nesta Carter (doper)
    2. Asafa Powell (doper)
    3. Michael Frater
    4. Yohan Blake (doper)


    TBF USOC threw out positives for 20+ yrs and the 3 big US track teams of the last 30 yrs: Santa Monica Track Club, Athletics West and the Nike Oregon Project were/are all organized doping programs.
 
Actually, I did address that argument. In my first of three points. Why are the hurdles needed? To see who the fastest person on an artificial course is? Because there's so many fences that grow in the wild? Why is the triple jump needed? Piss off with a pogo stick if that's what you're about. Lewis could have competed in any of these. Racewalking, too! The primary factor is raw speed in the horizontal plane. If he was that extraordinary, why not the Heptathlon, too?

Where does this end? Could get outta control plenty fast:
  • Why a Decathlon and Heptathlon?
  • Synchronized Swimming? 1930 called. Nobody gives a shit who Busby Berkeley is anymore.
  • Why do the divers dive from different heights? Pick one. Why events with two divers? Fuck off.
  • What the fuck are BMX bikes doing in the games? Cause you do flips and shits...uhh, pretty sure other athletes do that better. BMX, Diving, Trampoline, Rhythmic Gymnastics....all clearly bastardized, specialized, inferior, less demanding athletic skill sets for second rate gymnasts.
  • Three different forms of flat race cycling? Pretty sure all those bikes have two wheels.
  • Why so many fucking rowing events? You're all pulling on yourselves. Same goes for you twinkle-toed sailors.
  • Canoe and Canoe Slalom? Stop adding words to feel good about yourself, hippies. Choose or squeal like a pig.
  • Why do archers compete with those old recurve bows? Primitives peasants. What's next? A musket shooting competition?
  • Table Tennis? You literally shrunk some legitimate sport to the size of a table and tried to piggyback its glory?
  • Water Polo and Rugby? Make up your fucking mind. Kits or Speedos.
  • Basketball? Soccer? Field Hockey? Volleyball? Baseball? Oh, look, all you wannabes who couldn't hack it in Track & Field added a ball.
  • How in the blue fuck did Golfers con their way into this?

Look, there's more medals in swimming because it's one of the defining raw sports of humanity:
  1. Running & Throwing
  2. Martial Skills (Combat Sports, Shooting/Archery, Sailing/Rowing, Horseback Riding)
  3. Swimming
  4. Weightlifting
Those are the great, ancient four. Gymnastics & Cycling are modern additions and form the rest of the half dozen greater disciplines that really define the Summer Olympic spirit and subsume the various sports. Now we're adding Ball Sports. X-Games stuff is also clearly on the rise (especially in the Winter Games, but Red Bull is pushing hard into Summer).


Just the way it is. Also, I haven't seen anyone compare Phelp's medals to Bolt's like that matters. We're comparing Phelps medals in his own sport to entire other nations in his sport. That's what's freaking mindblowing.


again, none of those events outside speed walking have ppl purposely not going as fast as they possibly could be doing some silly method. Every event you just named based off speed has ppl going as fast as possible. Everybody considers speed walking a joke, no?? Thats how i feel about any non freestyle swimming event. take those medals and put them in the trash as far as im concerned.

It seems you dont understand the argument or just want to strawman it with a bunch of nonsense. I would prefer some kind of obstacle like a ring or w/e for them to swim thru underwater like hurdles. at least they would be going as fast as possible doing it.

Not even gonna get into the fact swimming a rich kids sport, you really think they have the best athletes?? lol yea, sure. So does hockey........
 
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Track has a ton as well. Just nobody is a freak in track like Phelps is in the pool.

100m
200m
400m
800m

Hurdles
110m
400m

Relay
4x100
4x400

Even without adding long or triple jump that's a lot of opportunity for medals.

Why is that line up that much different than what Phelps has done? Because nobody has been able to do anything like it? As pointed out by Mick and others only 4 people in history have won gold in 2 different styled individual events.

Some of you guys act like what Phelps does is easy compared to runners. Just look at other events in swimming. Just because some are good in a 50m doesn't mean those same people are good at 100, 200, 400, etc. If you watched swimming this Olympics even some gold medalists in the 100m events got torched in the 200m events of the same stroke. Most of the swimmers have a specific style and distance(s)(usually only a couple) they train for. Phelps is just a different animal. Does he have an advantage with the amount of events. Sure I give a slight advantage but track isn't far behind, it's just that there aren't multi event/distance specialists in track like what Phelps does in swimming.

How many track athletes have received multiple individual medals at an Olympics? Then compare it with how many swimmers have. Simply going by events doesn't show the disparity in difficulty in winning multiple medals.
 
Because running involves an orthopaedic limit that doesn't allow elite athletes to run more than 2-2.5hrs/day.

Swimming is like XC skiing -- there isn't an orthopaedic limit and you can spend 6hrs/day (or more) training for different disciplines. A XC skier could race 5km, classic/freestyle, the sprint and the 50k free.

Doesn't get around a limited ceiling for training volume before you begin inducing negative hormonal effects, and that other swimmers can maximize their total training volume in a different window. Besides, is it incredibly common for XC skiiers to medal in the sprint, 5k, and 50k?
TBF USOC threw out positives for 20+ yrs and the 3 big US track teams of the last 30 yrs: Santa Monica Track Club, Athletics West and the Nike Oregon Project were/are all organized doping programs.
Which would matter if we were comparing an American sprinter to Bolt, but you're losing sight of the fact that I didn't touch Gatlin in this thread and don't care about trading dirty vs. dirty if it means acknowledging that Bolt is almost certainly dirty.

Meanwhile, Phelps trollstomps everyone...including the guys who piss hot.
 
again, none of those events outside speed walking have ppl purposely not going as fast as they possibly could be doing some silly method.

Every event you just named based off speed has ppl going as fast as possible. Everybody considers speed walking a joke, no?? Thats how i feel about any non freestyle swimming event. take those medals and put them in the trash as far as im concerned.
Fail. Hurdles handicaps a runner. It's a "silly" introduction of an obstacle requiring an adaptation of technique, but incontrovertibly slower than running. Add the Steeple Chase. Triple jump is just two shorter jumps after an initial, longer jump. Why are they "purposely" jumping shorter distances?

Nobody is deliberately going at 90% in the backstroke or butterfly. Just like the hurdler, or the guy taking a second and third jump, they're going at 100% of capacity within that more refined skill.
It seems you dont understand the argument or just want to strawman it with a bunch of nonsense. I would prefer some kind of obstacle like a ring or w/e for them to swim thru underwater like hurdles. at least they would be going as fast as possible doing it.

Not even gonna get into the fact swimming a rich kids sport, you really think they have the best athletes?? lol yea, sure. So does hockey........
OMFG, the latent racism is beyond obvious. You must have missed the many reports over the past decade demonstrating that more affluent kids do better at the professional level in all sports; including the NBA & NFL. The myth of the poor urban dweller who would beat on the spoiled preppie jocks because he was "hungrier" and had no other avenues for climbing the social ladder was dispelled a good while ago. Certain cultures gravitate towards different sports. Basketball tends to draw guys who are good at basketball. Swimming tends to draw guys who are good at swimming.

You're unintentionally pushing this conversation towards, "Gold medals in the Decathlon are the only medals that matter." Throw the rest of them in the trash.
 
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